Home » Cynical And Southern, Ideas, Sexuality
26 April 2010, 4:00 pm 315 Comments

Cynical and Southern: I’d hate to be Black and on Adam4Adam

This post was submitted by Jeremy Gloff

No blacks please.
Sorry no blacks.
If you are black not interested.
Chocolate not welcome.

You will never see the above four sentences on a job application.
You will never see the above four sentences on a sign in front of a club.
You will never see those four sentences while applying for an apartment.
However you will see those sentences quite frequently on the gay dating site Adam4Adam.

In the year 2010 it is illegal to be racially selective in the work place. In the course of making friends it would be considered racist to say out loud that you do not want black friends. I am hard pressed think of any situation where it is socially acceptable to physically single out a black person as being undesirable and not welcome. Except on Adam4Adam.

Many times on Adam4Adam these racially driven statements are followed by “I’m not racist, it’s just a preference.”

If an employer doesn’t want to hire a black person that is also a preference isn’t it?
If someone doesn’t want to have black friends that is a preference as well.
All of the above situations are one form or another of racism. An entire race of people is being disqualified solely based on skin tone.

Adam4Adam is basically a gay sex site. While its credibility is extremely low, its popularity amongst a sizable portion of the gay population is high. While browsing the site (for reasons unspecified here) I found it shocking just how acceptable and normal it was for a large number of these profiles to state out loud that black men were not desirable. And then there was the guy who didn’t like Asians either who said that “if you are chocolate or rice please don’t bother.”

“No blacks. It’s just a preference.”

I sit now putting myself in another man’s skin. I am at my computer lonely at night browsing people’s profiles. I am trying to imagine how it would make me feel to see over and over and over and over that someone does not want me to message them because of my skin color.

“No blacks. It’s just a preference.”

Had they not said they didn’t like black people I may have e-mailed them. Would it have been that horrible to receive an e-mail from a black man? Is it that hard to not open an email? Is it that hard to not open fifty emails?

I do not think a black man should ever have to get used to seeing people express out loud they find them undesirable. It is time for gay men to stop this. We cannot dismiss Adam4Adam. Millions of people are on this site daily. The language used on this site has an effect on many people’s daily lives.

We all have a right to our preferences. Every single person in the world has the right to have sex with whatever turns them on. Despite our liberty to choose our sexual partners we are obligated as human beings to take into consideration the feelings of our fellow man. For the sake of people’s feelings is it that fucking hard to keep some of our preferences to ourselves?


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315 Comments »

  • Aris said:

    It’s not just A4A (which is one step above Craigslist in sketchiness, IMO), but pretty much all hookup sites. I’ve seen “Sorry, just a preference” so many times on ManHunt, not to mention CL.

  • Mike said:

    As an Asian male I see this happen all the time. While this is seen a lot, you should also remember that there are plenty of people who don’t have these “preferences”. Of course, you might start getting into fetish territory there, but people unlike that are around, somewhere.

  • Spencer said:

    What about “No Fats/No Fems” or “HWP only!” I’ve seen these just as often as “No Blacks,” possibly more.

  • Alan said:

    @ Spencer . . . or “Old” as well.

    Thanks for the perspective Jeremy

  • Gary said:

    Very good piece. Appreciate it.

  • Thomas said:

    No kidding! I live in an area with a relatively tiny gay population (even smaller if you consider being “out”). Every now and then, when that rare itch wants to be scratched, I have to turn to the internet, and what do I see?

    “HWP Only”
    “No fatties”
    “Slim or buff”
    “Muscular or twink, HWP”

    …and on, and on.
    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not that badly out of shape, but I’m also not ashamed to say that I consider myself a “cub” (at least by physical standards). Any wonder I haven’t gotten laid in almost three years?

    I don’t necessarily begrudge people their preferences; hell, we all (or at least most of us) have them. I blame the internet. Not to go all Robert Putnam or anything, but I think technology really has hindered the sexual diversity of homosexuality. Sure, you can find anything and almost anyone you want online, but at the same time the trend seems to be that the majority of people’s sexual desires have become hyper-specialized, bordering on the unrealistic and fantastical. Is this apparent trend due to the ease in acquiring porn? Are sites like Xtube ruining our sexual proclivities? Am I really supposed to believe that 90% of gay men are looking for HWP, 18-25, white, muscular or twink tops? REALLY?

    Anyway, all this rambling is simply to say “good article, glad to see others agree!”

  • Kiley said:

    Regardless of the nature of the particular immutable trait the masses have deemed undesirable, and repeatedly proclaimed to be so in personals post after personals post, the degree to which exposure to these exclusionary words disfigures the soul of those who bear the “affliction” is considerable, and indelible.

    Though I am about as white a homo sapiens as one typically encounters, my identification with this piece was considerable. Substitute for the rejection of African-Americans language that commands that no fems, or butch only, shall apply, and this piece could’ve been about me. While a digital image does not reveal my “flaw,” conversation does, and I can remember the abject desperation I felt, 15 years ago, when the sole window into the gay world to which I had access consisted of a collection of print and then-nascent online personals, many of which proclaimed in indisputable terms that I was unwelcome. Of course, I was later to discover that many men who wouldn’t dare risk public association would’ve been more than pleased with a private shag. In the dark, they’d entertain possibilities with those with whom they’d never have associated in the glaring light of day.

    Nonetheless, even today, I sometimes struggle to feel relevant to and within the gay realm, though I recognize and acknowledge that the more-closeted nature of Hampton Roads, relative to DC and other regions, complicates my quest to feel valued in this domain.

  • Joseph T said:

    A well written piece that highlights one of the many ways gays spread hate amoung ourselves. Being gay does not mean one is above sexism or racism.

  • Seth G said:

    Interesting piece, but your solution seems worse than the problem. Sometimes ignorance is not bliss.

    As I understand it, you are saying: “Don’t tell people you categorically refuse to consider having sex with black guys, and leave the black guys who contact you uncertain why you aren’t responding to their messages.”

    Who benefits from your proposal? Doesn’t seem to me it’s black men.
    Imagine your scenario again:

    I am at my computer lonely at night browsing people’s profiles. I am trying to imagine how it would make me feel to send messages over and over and over and over and never receive a response (or receive a response at much lower rates than my white friends). I fit the guy’s profile, so I am left doubting whether it is because of my skin color or because of something about me that I can change (my picture, my approach, etc.).

  • shpear said:

    In DC? Adam4Adam is the hookup site where black men disproportionately congregate here.

  • Nino said:

    Honestly?

    I don’t see the “no blacks please” as much on A4A as much as on Manhunt. A4A is site predominately frequented by men of color, and “the men who love them.” Perhaps on occasion one will come across someone (non black) who would dare state their racial preference for whites only on the site, and they usually have gotten a tongue lashing from me…and then I suggest that they try Manhunt, because that’s where I see “white only”, “no offense, it’s just a preference” etc. And I would say that most of the guys on there are white “or the men that love them”.

    Conversely I have seen “no whites”, “no femmes”, “thugs only”. “dl only” etc on A4A. I think you should take a look at A4A again. I’m not saying that there isn’t offensive language on there, but it’s not that different from the preferences found elsewhere. What ever happened to just being nice to each other? Not having to either ignore, or overtly tell someone “no whites”, “no blacks”, “no Asians or sub-continentals, but would give consideration to Bollywood hunks!”

    It’s very easy to let someone know that you’re not interested in them sexually, but don’t mind chatting..just chat. be graceful, be a gentleman.
    The problem lies in that people think they could say anything they want to as long as the barrier of being online is up.

    Consider this – If cruising in a bar and a someone that is not of your “preference” walked up to you and started to chat you up, would anyone have the guts to say face to face – “sorry no blacks, or whites or Asians, would consider Bollywood star…no offense..it’s just my preference”, that just wouldn’t happen in the real world. But we allow it to happen online. Why? Because truthfully, there is a lot of racism in the gay community, we are not that different from the rest of our society.

    I’ve written both sites to explain why they allow that sort crap on their sites. The response has been the same from both. “People are allowed to voice their preference. We are not in the “position” to monitor personal preferences” BS! Any bias is distasteful. I no longer bother with either site. In fact the whole chat scene has become just like hanging out in any gay dive. Honestly I when I used to hang out in bars or in chat rooms, I found my mind wandering off to how great having a bagel would be now. Not hating…it just my opinion. It’s just become that redundant.

    Similar to the bias for the “hipster crowd” on this site. There is nothing “New Gay” about bias. What constitutes a “hipster” or a “new gay” anyway? We are all looking for sex and love, and as far as I could see you are generating the same elitism you appear to be against. Again…not hating..it’s just my opinion.

    It’s a good step that you have noticed that such offensive behavior goes on in the chat rooms. But it’s curious that you seem to have only seen it on A4A. It’s all around you, just take a real good look. You’ll find it.

    W

  • anon said:

    I find the work place analogy to be illogical at best because it is also illegal to discriminate against females and handicapped people as well and I think that gay men would all agree that women are not what we want. How about transsexuals or transgender or even bisexual people? In the work place, discrimination is not an issue of political correctness but a legal matter of giving people of the same qualification the same opportunities. This is a hook up seen, it is based solely on physical attraction. If you look at it from the employment prospective, if you do not meet that person’s look, you don’t meet that person’s qualifications for a hook up. Not being white, I’ve learned a few things about all of this and the one thing that I’ve learned is that this really isn’t an issue of race for the people claiming racial discrimination but an issue of acceptance. Its the feeling of being ugly and fat among high school jocks. The feeling that we are not part of the “in crowd” and that if those words didn’t appear that we would have a chance with those people. The truth is that even if those words don’t appear it doesn’t change a thing, you still wouldn’t have a chance with that person. If you think you would have a chance, then why not reply anyway and see what happens?

  • Jeremy Gloff said:

    It is shocking, but not surprising to me, that anyone reading this totally missed the point and is content continuing to swim around in the murky muck of the way things currently are.

    People sure come up with some creative bullshit to defend their narrow and backwards ways don’t they?

    I stand by what I wrote. With America still as racist as it is it’s a dangerous proposition to allow such racially charged language to become the norm.

    One letter up there really got under my skin. In response I know in the past when I would email someone, if they didn’t email me back (for whatever reason!) that was all the indication I needed to know they weren’t interested. Email people once. They write back or they don’t. People that keep emailing and not getting a response…that’s on you.

    Take the negative language out of your profiles people. A couple years ago I did write an essay called “No Fats Or Femmes: A Gay Culture At War With Itself”. For further reading if anyone is interested, please feel free to check it out.

  • KP said:

    Thank you for posting this article. I have found that the discrimination on these sites, unfortunately, goes even beyond racism. Homosexuals likewise discriminate against age, height, weight and sometimes even foot and penis size. It is indeed an interesting duality that the gay subculture, itself a minority, is plagued by discrimination against the very individuals that make up that subculture. I recently saw a shocking example of this on adam4adam. A young man posted a profile and he stated in the first few sentences that he is physically handicapped, and requested that he not be contacted if one has an issue with handicapped individuals. However, in the next few lines he asks that no one over the age of 30 contact him! This is just fundamentally egregious behavior and furthermore, seems borderline psychotic. This kind of cyclical discrimination goes beyond any established social norms. Furthermore, I simply do not agree with the argument that these are merely “preferences”. If in fact, if one is indeed not attracted to a person based on skin color, age or weight, or any other physical attribute, those preferences need not be declared in writing in an online profile, rather, the tactful, human thing to do is to just simply not respond. Unfortunately, I do not think these hateful and ignorant practices will end anytime soon. These odd forms of discrimination are a long-established symptom of the subculture. We can only hope that the gay community can eventually rise above this kind of small-minded psychology and accept all those that seek acceptance within the gay community. As gay individuals, we battle the discrimination of the heterosexual world, and I find it abominable that we have to experience discrimination from those within our own ranks.

  • Anonymous said:

    Sorry but your analogies are stupid. You have overlooked a critical factor that makes A4A logically dissimilar from the examples you cite. Allow me to spell this out for you.

    Your employer doesn’t have to suck your cock.
    Your golfing buddies at the club don’t have to suck your cock.
    Your landlord doesn’t have to suck your cock.
    Your friends don’t have to suck your cock.

    If someone has to suck your cock, they’re allowed to discriminate on any basis they choose. Sexual selection is the basis for natural selection and evolution, without which humanity would not have progressed much in the last million or so years. To conflate sexual preference with real, insitutionalized racism is intellectually lazy and blatantly dishonest.

  • Jeremy Gloff said:

    I bet a million bucks the above ‘anonymous’ commenter has a super douchey A4A profile. Knowing my landlord, employer, golfing buddies, and friends I’m fine with them all sucking my cock — none of them are racist.

    I see my call to withhold/reevaluate the profile language I wrote about in my article as the next step in the intellectual evolution of man. I call for a change in the way we use our language. Some asshole writing a comment anonymously with a thesaurus in their hand certainly isn’t going to change my mind.

  • nattyboom said:

    Thanks for sharing, Jeremy. When I first moved here, most of my buddies were black gay men who informed me about A4A. So maybe A4A has changed recently, but from my understanding it was mostly black dudes.

    While I may not have a (biological) cock to stand on, I do remember coming into DC 4 or 5 yrs ago and checking out different (mainly platonic) websites. I totally understand people have different preferences, but it really was kinda daunting to read post after post saying essentially “no blacks wanted.”

    They made me think that the poster had certain experiences or preconceived notions that informed their preference. Which I felt was ok. But at the same time, it made me think back when I’ve unfortunately been told I “transcended” race or was somehow different than other blacks. So… should I respond to get the poster outside of their comfort zone? “Maybe they are only talking about blacks who have certain gender identities” “Maybe they are only talking about blacks who frequent certain bars” are all thoughts I had when reading the post. “Well, does it really matter what ‘type’ of blacks this person is talking about b/c I’m always black.”

    Then, I realized that no matter what the poster meant, it’s probably not someone I want to make an effort to hang out with. Soooo… I didn’t. But, nonetheless, it still sucks seeing those posts often.

  • Jeremy Gloff said:

    thanks for the thoughtful response. i played pinpong in my head with some of the stuff you wrote…def a lot to chew on there.

    I have some conclusions drawn from all the comments…interesting reading all the different takes on this. I am going to write a follow up on this topic in a future “Cynical And Southern” column.

  • Randy said:

    In a world where I choose who is a part of my personal life, especially sex life, I can make any caveat I want for someone to enter it. I can demand the person only wear yellow button down shirts on the first meeting or it won’t happen. So assume that someone who likes whites or redheads or latinos, etc is racist for it, you’ve never encountered true racism.

    My bet from my own anecdotal encounters is the fact that black men will hit on these whitewashed profiles of people who just aren’t sexually attracted to black men and then get a tongue lashing when they end up rejecting the black guy. It’s easier to be up front and say “don’t bother because I will end up rejecting you” rather than have the uncomfortable and unnecessary conversation.

    By your standards aren’t all gay men misogynists? Aren’t their inherent rejection of women an -ism they should “rise above”? Again just in case you missed what A4A was it’s a sex site. Read again, top line, on why something as personal as sex should be something you get to make any damn decision that you want.

    Now if it was superbestgayfriendswithnosexever.com THEN you would have a better leg to stand on. The qualities of a friendship are merited on similar personalities, desires and other qualities. a SEXUAL desire is something that is less controllable, unless you want to go join all those ex-gay folks who say they can change their sexual desire to end their sexist ways against women.

  • Jeremy Gloff said:

    This is getting boring. Need I write it for the eight thousandth time? I think we have to conduct ourselves as intellectual and sensitive beings, yes, even on sex sites.

    As you said, you have the right to choose whoever you want to join you in the bedroom.

    As I said in my article, the language and impersonal method being used to “weed out our undesirables” is base and unsavory.

    It’s really simple to grasp the concept that if someone doesn’t write back to your email, they aren’t interested for whatever reason.

    Oh ye gay men, I challenge you to deal with the hassle of getting a few emails you may not answer. For the sake of sparing people’s feelings.

    Oh, and I’m thankful you informed me Adam4Adam was a sex site. I have no idea and I didn’t mention that in my article at all.

    Now, stop being racist in your profiles people.

  • Randy said:

    I only respond because you are not putting forth the full picture or even acknowledge my statement about misogyny. If someone is not allowed to be sexually attracted to certain traits (race, skin color, etc) but you allow them to be gay men and not be attracted to women. That is a disconnect you refuse to understand. Calling someone a “racist” because they don’t sexually prefer a black man is wrong and misrepresentation of what real racism is.

  • ACS said:

    Randy, you just don’t get it. The point of this thread is a request to an end of indecent behavior online. Call it racist, preference, your right to, whatever, while you may have the right to you sexual preference, that does not necessarily exclude your permission to be rude and post less than desirable expression of your preference.

    The point of this thread is a call to, moreover, a challenge to make people think about how words can and do affect others. No you don’t have the right to make some feel bad, unless your willing to take the criticism for it.

    Now, I will comment on your point about whether or not we are being misogynistic because we prefer men sexually over women. I think at this point you’re talking about apples and oranges. Not all gay men are misogynistic because they prefer to men. I have yet to see an ad anywhere, on any gay sex site, that explicitly rule out women, I mean we all know that we’re are seeking sex with men; moreover I doubt that there are many women, if at all, looking around A4A, or Manhunt, or any of the gay male sex sites or sex, and if they are, well…that’s they’re personal right, and I’ll bet anything that those that do peruse gay men sex sites, know that that they may not be “hooking up” any time soon. So your argument in comparing misogyny to racial preference isn’t to strong.

    In the end, no one is saying that you don’t have the right to your ” gay whites, redheads, or Latino” gay brothers (oh and just as a side, it may shock you to learn that there are “whites, redheads, and Latinos, that all have African ancestry? What would your reaction be if, apres sex, you learn that what your seeing is not what you just had? It does happen).

    I will pose the same question I pose to posters of your ilk. Would you, if in a actual bar, not a sex line, tell a person of color, “no black please”, to their face? I would bet that you would be more polite, if not take a more precautionary tact, and politely let the person know that they are not “your type”. Then again, you may be just a crass and rude even in those situations, I don’t know you, so I can’t say.

    So again, let me try and help you understand, this thread is not about sexual preference, it’s about being civil to one another. This may be a difficult concept for some of you to understand, but at least, the thought may enter your way of going about things more tactfully.

  • Another Jeremy said:

    To the anonymous person who said it was intellectually lazy and blatantly dishonest to call this behavior racist:

    Your incoherent juxtaposition of an argument that basically consists of “I can choose whomever I want” and “it’s biological and beyond my control” is downright disturbing. In addition, your comments are shockingly derogatory. Sexual attraction is about much more than a person meeting a list of predetermined physical criteria. It’s about an unspoken chemistry between people. In other words, you just have to know it when you see it. If you met every “black” (whatever that means exactly, since I assume you mean people of a certain skin complexion seeing as how we all came from Africa) person on the planet and said you didn’t want to be sexual with them, then so be it. But it seems rather suspect that you have already decided that no black man will meet your standards for attractiveness. If there are no racist undertones then why not be even more specific? Why not say you prefer 6′ tall, muscular men of German descent or men who look identical to Colin Farrell? The truth is that you are simply open to sleeping with various varieties of “white” men and not “black” men. I wonder how many people on the site make mention of not being attracted to Irish men, Italian men, Russian men or Lebanese men. If they’re so sure what they’re sexually attracted to, why is the only parameter that the other person not be black? The issue at hand is cultural. Period. Black men are not often depicted archetypal beautiful people in America today, and as such people often have it in their heads that black men are deficient physically and otherwise. That is a textbook definition of prejudice which is a preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience. So unless you’ve seen/met every person you would describe as “black” in the world there is no way you can state with certainty that you are not attracted to a specific race and claim with any credibility that the statement reveals no racism on your part. “I am not willing” to and “I have yet to find an example of the contrary” are very different statements.

    And your biological arguments are ludicrous. I won’t even go in to how offensive these descriptors are, as if race is this (pun intended) black/white characteristic instead of a continuum. It is not biological for people to be attracted to anyone because of skin color. Evenness of skin tone maybe. It is biological to be attracted to someone who has symmetrical facial features and looks like they could either bear children well or protect a family. And seeing as how we’re talking about gay men, I don’t see how either one of those could readily apply. The only biological element of attraction has to do with people looking HEALTHY, and the rest of these little idiosyncratic preferences are all choices. (Again, humanity originated in Africa, so if it’s biological for you not to be attracted to black men, how do you account for that fact?) Evolution has replaced many of these standards even with respect to heterosexual couples. No longer are women likely to go after the man who is overweight because it means he is eating well and will not likely starve to death. We human beings can decide of our own volition and resist what is perpetually pumped into our heads on a daily basis about what is and is not attractive in movies, magazine and movies. The choice is still ours to make. Your attempted use of evolution as a justification for your blatant biases against certain races is disgusting. But as has been stated many times, you can sleep with whoever the hell you want. If you don’t want to fuck a black men then don’t. Who gives a shit. But just understand that there is a difference between biology and your willful choice to be ignorant. I at least hope you see how the confusion of the two is morally dangerous.

  • molefsky said:

    Another Jeremy, I /mostly/ agree. Rather than reference your post or anyone else’s i’ll simply write my own.

    Sexual selection is just about the least “politically correct” thing that we all do regularly. it’s the ultimate in discrimination, “who will receive my genes” “whose genes will i bet on”. that being said… sexual selection is highly cultural. As a straight male i can attest to this. big girls were historically attractive, full figured in the 60′s, skinny/boobless in the 70′s, skinny models, over-boobed porn stars, some like hairy, some like shaved, it all changes even from culture to culture today. as a young man i remember noting how other people’s opinion of who you chose to be with was almost (even more sometimes) as important as whether you liked her or not. we all lusted after some lame-ass chick because she was this or that etc. In the end you realize that you could’ve gone a lot of directions, even across the aisle to some of your not-strictly-hetero buddies if you’d wanted to.

    next, i’m about to get unpopular. posting something like “no chocolate, asian, chubby, honkey, glasses, anything specific” in a personal ad is a sure sign that you’re not looking for much beyond a physical relationship. that’s just the long and short of it. to say, when looking for casual sex, that you have a specific spectrum is one thing. to say that you won’t consider the possibility of a meaningful relationship with someone due to a physical trait… that’s just fucking stupid (read “ignorant”). people don’t have relationships because the other person is their physical ideal; a relationship is an emotional bond that may or may not even include sex. typically physical flaws are somewhat overlooked when people are fulfilled otherwise (sexually and emotionall. she doesn’t need to be perfect to get me going… sometimes far from it)

    sex=/=intimacy=/=sex

    why would this make me unpopular? because, if there was some ambiguity, i’m accusing these people of looking solely for sex, something that i think the gay community has yet to, largely, mature past. this is both cultural, biological, sociological, and kind of enforced by the rest of western (and world wide) society. if you consider the attitudes toward homosexual relationships as you ascend in the age demographics we all know the trends you’ll see. this is really the first generation where, even in rural america, acceptance of young people being gay is the standard and when it isn’t it makes the news (hyperbole). people in my mother’s generation (boomers) certainly didn’t have those opportunities, thus this is the first generation of young non-heterosexual people to express themselves, identify with each other and the heterosexual community, and explore their possibilities of actually making an inclusive life for themselves and their families. the defenders of “traditional marriage” (read penis+vagina=happy marriage) simultaneously accuse non-heterosexual people of being wanton in their sexual practices and obstruct the development of environments where people can make open commitments to one another. what else would you expect from adults who believe in god(s)(read “magic”)?

    the OP has good intentions but, put simply, these people have no obligation that resembles that of employers. sexual selection is heavily affected by social culture but you have no obligation to be an “equal opportunities” fuck. but MORE importantly, the concept of categorical exclusions for a /relationship/ are foolish. If people knew what they /really/ wanted then nobody would get divorced, cheat, experiment, date other people….etc.

    disclaimers: yes, i realize that having long-term homosexual relationships isn’t new. yes, i realize that we can all come up with anecdotal examples of this and that. i also don’t mean to lecture as though straight folk have figured anything out. sorry about the formatting; the box is small.

  • Jeremy Gloff said:

    I found the last three posts all well written and interesting takes on this. Thank you.

  • ACS said:

    @ Molefsky

    I sorta kinda agree with you. Yes sexual attraction is at its base a biological impulse, and that emotional attachment is distinct from just a fuck. I don’t agree with, “…accusing these people of looking solely for sex, something that i think the gay community has yet to, largely, mature past”. That is just not true nor correct. I’ll use the basic argument and say that you cannot uniformly dismiss the diversity in the gay community with a statement like that. There are many gay people that aren’t hyper-sexual, and prefer to lead a more “classical” form of dating, and having romantic interludes, again to lump us all as not having reached the mature level of sexual behavior, “largely” or not, is too broad a generalization. I would rethink that.

    Another thing, and this one really gets under my skin, as black as it (meant for those that have racial hangups), I also don’t agree fully with your idea that your generation is the first to accept young gays as “standard”, even in “rural America”. Let’s not forget that your mother’s generation, the boomers, were the first to experiment sexual diversity and acceptance openly. Not that they were uniformly accepting of gay people, but the gay movement grew out of that boomer generation, and paved the way for some the acceptance of gays as “normal”. It was because of the gay boomers that the American Psychological Association (APA) decided to remove homosexuality from the list of mental illness.

    Moreover, when I hear this talk about how much “things” have changed, I have to ask: for whom? Again, too broad and respectfully uninformed. “Things” might be better for middle-class white gay males, and even that is a generalization as the variable is a geographic factor; but if you go into certain communities other than the relatively small community of people that do support equal rights for gays, you might find that the disgust, hate, and anti-gay sentiment is very alive and well. We cannot accept that all is cool, just because a select group of people, (I might add a historically select group of people) are able to blend in and be accepted as legit.

    I am a Afro-Caribbean male, who is gay, and although I do not live an impoverished life, and can afford European vacations, and stay in relatively well kept hotels, I am still considered by most of America, at first glance, a second-class citizen. So for as much change as you may see, I can honestly say, and we can see it in this thread, that that change is slow in coming and is not as wide as you may think so. I know that you are straight, but I would pose to you that if you were to try an experiment like for example, walking hand in hand with another man into certain communities, I would bet that your experience would not be a welcomed one, and those communities can be of many demographics.

    We have a long way to go. Your generation’s attitude toward gays is a result of the sacrifices, that many people of diverse races and ages before you, have made. So please stop thinking that your generation as got it all right, there’s a lot of work to be done. Perhaps in your small group of friends everyone is cool and accepted, but it’s not like that in the real world. Think about that for a bit.

    As this is a discussion on racism and sexism, and one’s personal right to choose who they bed with, again I will submit, that those who think you have the right to exclude blacks, or whites, or Asians, etc., it wouldn’t hurt to take a real good look at what you’re posting and see if you can make the effort to use your imagination just a bit, and actually post a non-exclusive post. You might be surprised at what you may find. I’m not saying that you’ll have to bed with a person of color, but you may find that you may be harboring feelings that you thought you were above.

  • molefsky said:

    @ ACS

    paragraph 1: read what’s there. in this context the word “mature” is a verb, not an adjective. this is a critical distinction.

    also, “accusing these people of looking solely for sex…’ I maintain that when you have a laundry list of physical wants in a partner then you’re looking for sex, whether you realize it or not.

    “something that i think the gay community has yet to, largely, mature past.” Gay community is not a term that refers to an individual level sampling of everyone who is gay or non-heterosexual (not strictly heterosexual); it refers to an abstract swathe of people who may or not even identify themselves as a part of a larger community. In this sense I think you have to look at the general stereotypes that, while changing continually, have existed and persist about what the gay “lifestyle” (whatever the fuck that is) entails. To many many people they group that is most visible to them are young non-heterosexual men who are not especially monogamous. I personally know a number of people, even here in my red-state home, that have been in decades long homosexual monogamous relationships. They don’t really exist here without a certain level of discretion or titles like “roommates”.

    The gay community is not solely a collection of people any more than the black community, the muslim community, the evangelical community, or even the white community. each of these are certainly populated by individuals but have differing ideas, attitudes, and levels of activism. read what i wrote, i never said there was such a thing as being “mature” in the sense that there’s an end to the road. i simply said that the gay community hadn’t reached the same place as other groups largely due to the religious and socially constrictive environment around them (us all). as a group identity they are still very new.

    paragraph 2: your comments about the boomers strengthens my point. they paved the way for the young people of the current generation. now they don’t have to be seen as radicals, they can simply be seen as other people. Is this universally true? nope. Is it largely true? yup, and it will probably continue to get better as more and more people discover that 1. homosexually is not an infectious disease
    2. gay men are not waiting to rape straight men
    3. gay men are not child molesters
    4. gay men are not feminine, fairies, queens, fags, limp-wristed, light in the loafers, etc. etc. etc. they /are/ in fact competent, competitive, and worthwhile socially and professionally. This is truly the first generation where an openly gay man or woman would be considered so (publicly). This owes directly to the gay movement of the baby boomer generation but it underscores my previously stated point.

    paragraph 3: i might agree with this somewhat except you seem to disregard the great changes that have already taken place. let’s keep in mind that the United States is one generation removed from segregation and i can’t remember the last time a black person was lynched in our community. not only are we not bombing black churches anymore we now have elected gay officials, black officials, states considering same-sex marriage actually /debating/ the issue. I’m sorry but that’s HUUUUUGE!! i’m not saying that people should have to wait for their rights but let’s not pretend that it isn’t moving in a favorable direction and at a much more rapid pace than it did for much larger minority groups. it took a century for second class citizenship to be legally ended for black americans. we’ve gone from illegal in most places, and a mental “affliction”, to public office and consideration in less than 40 years. i know arkansas still had anti-sodomy laws on the books until after 2000.

    my own mother talks about how they viewed “queer people” when she was a kid. she insists that this was the polite term one used to refer to a (whispered) …homosexual.

    you can’t tell me that this isn’t change. nothing ever changes all at once and with social issues it takes a long time for attitudes to change.

    paragraph 4: what is your basis for saying you are viewed as a second class citizen?

    paragraph 5: never said the younger generation did. your /perception/ of the real world and if you can afford european vacations then you probably aren’t in it.

    paragraph 6: agree with your last sentence.

  • spur210 said:

    This simply comes down to courtesy and manners. Fine we all have preferences but I’m sure your parents or community raised most of us to be somewhat respectful in public. See the problem is somehow because we feel it’s the internet, it gives license to be rude and disrespectful. You don’t walk into a gay bar and if a “fem” says hello, blurt in response “SORRY NO FEMS!” You don’t walk into a bar and announce “OKAY GUYS, NOT INTO BLACKS, OKAY?” Everyone would look at you as if certifiably insane. There’s no public rebuke in an “anonymous” forum where you can be as rude and disrespectful as you want.

    This is where site owners and moderators must step in. We can all talk about hooking up and sexual desires WITHOUT using offensive, rude language. Don’t think it’s rude or offensive language? Then next time you’re out at a social setting or at the local cruise spot, try announcing as you arrive one the following:

    No blacks please.
    Sorry no blacks.
    If you are black not interested.
    Chocolate not welcome.
    NO FATS
    NO FEMS
    TWINKS ONLY
    SLIM PLEASE

    Even those that share your preference won’t agree with your “announcement.” It’s long time that we treated each other with respect and dignity before we expect the “straight” world to do the same.

  • Jeremy Gloff said:

    Spur: You hit the nail on the head 8000%. I don’t understand how any person could disagree with you summation.

  • Ed said:

    Any arguments based on gay men being biologically predisposed to anything are just plain stupid. I’m sorry to be indelicate, but there’s no other way to put it. You are gay. Any argument supporting “natural selection” in the choice of sexual partners implies that our entire existence is unnatural. There is no biological component to who we choose to screw. It’s based on the images we are inundated with from Madison Avenue and gay porn. Some guys like to pretend like there is an preference/race paradox. Which came first? But, just look at any gay magazine, porn site, underwear site, clothing site, and so on, and what is the race of the overwhelming majority of the faces you see? Do you really think you are making a choice if you “prefer” guys who look like most of the guys you see in gay advertising and porn all the time? That’s nonsense. It’s another extension of the Peter Pan Syndrome and the refusal to grow up. “I want what I see!”

    I am a black guy who has been dealing with white guys discussing how racist it is for other white guys to openly express their bias. I wish the racially biased would wear t-shirts or name tags saying, “I don’t like black people.” I would rather know up front then leave myself open to get stabbed in the back. One guy said he gets to choose who he lets into his bed and into his life, and he uses skin color to inform his decisions. Non-whites don’t have the same luxury. Progressive whites constantly present themselves one way only to later divulge bias that is so deeply ingrained they don’t even know they have it. Something else some of you might realize if you were having honest conversations with black people about race is that having a preference isn’t necessarily a problem. The problem is that the guys who express the preferences online are only the tip of the iceberg. There are so many others who don’t say anything at all, but even that is tolerable. The problem that seems to be absent from this conversation is that the preferences don’t stay online. Guys in bars are rude. I am a nice guy and a Texan. So, it’s part of my culture to speak to everyone, but if I smile at a white guy I don’t find attractive, he thinks it’s because I’m black and want to have sex with him. Now, people weigh in and say, “Oh, that happens to everyone.” No, it actually doesn’t. Yes, people are rude, but there is a different vibe that these guys give off. I’d be willing to discuss it, but people dismiss it as being paranoid, which is, again, an example of white people talking about race but not listening.

    I have a really good friend who is white and says that he “prefers” to have sex with twinky white guys, but he will be friends with anyone. I don’t care if some person doesn’t want to have sex with me. I care when they take that attitude out of the bedroom and into other parts of our community. I remember hearing about Halo having one floor for black guys and another for white guys. People said, “Oh, it’s because the blacks don’t want to hang out with us.” That’s moronic. In an age where people feel so alone and isolated, do you think people really want to self-segregate? That’s the understanding of someone who doesn’t care if people who don’t look like them are present.

    The guy who said your boss or landlord don’t have to “suck your dick” demonstrates how insidious this problem really is. People who think that way ignore the fact that these preferences are, to a large degree, carried into work environments, bars, and other parts of our culture. Again, look at advertising directed toward gay men. With the exception of “group” shots, there are virtually no people of color. If you want to see people of color online, you have to go to sites that depict Asians, Blacks, and Latinos as racial caricatures. When was the last time you saw a model of color in an OUT magazine fashion editorial?

    If you want to deal with racism in the gay community, deal with the lack of images representing people of color, people over 40, people with a waist larger than 33 inches, that fuels the illusion that you’re really making a choice about who you prefer. Seriously, go out to a bar one night and count how many guys have on the same shirt or pants or are wearing the same outfit but in different colors. I used to play a game growing up to see if I could go 15 seconds without seeing a pickup truck on the highway. Here, I play the same game, but I use guys in a t-shirt, plaid shorts and flip flops on their iPhone.

    If you want to have a conversation about race and what black people prefer, how about asking some of us. I get that denouncing racism makes liberal white people feel good, but I would prefer a blatant racist over a paternalistic liberal any day. One guy said he’s actually written letters to these sites about the language people use. At least he’s doing something, but a lot of other “well-meaning” white folks talk the talk, but don’t walk the walk. They do nothing to challenge the institutions that perpetuate beauty standards that exclude a majority of the people in our community, but it doesn’t just hurt people of color. Anorexia and bulimia rates among white men are skyrocketing. Gotta have those abs!

    Speaking of images, I don’t understand why Don King and Al Sharpton were chosen to make the point that people should be more “sensitive.” Why not use it as an opportunity to show images of hot black men or a black guy next to a white guy with similar features? I think it’s because folks are more interested in being “nice” and doling out sanctimonious lectures than actually doing something that will change things.

    That’s why I wrote a piece applauding Zack Rosen for his NetRoots Gayation column. I don’t agree with all of his methods or all of his ideas, but at least he’s willing to put himself out there (literally) to try to make real change. http://thenewgay.net/2010/08/i%E2%80%99m-proud-of-zack-rosen.html

  • Ed said:

    oops. sorry about how long that is.

  • Jeremy Gloff said:

    Ed, never apologize for being too wordy. Despite the fact that quite often you disagree with me, I enjoy the fact that you are so opinionated and passionate about those opinions. I especially enjoyed what you have to say here.

    In your opinion should there be a drive for people to write to these sites?

    This paragraph especially moved me:
    If you want to deal with racism in the gay community, deal with the lack of images representing people of color, people over 40, people with a waist larger than 33 inches, that fuels the illusion that you’re really making a choice about who you prefer. Seriously, go out to a bar one night and count how many guys have on the same shirt or pants or are wearing the same outfit but in different colors. I used to play a game growing up to see if I could go 15 seconds without seeing a pickup truck on the highway. Here, I play the same game, but I use guys in a t-shirt, plaid shorts and flip flops on their iPhone.

  • Psy said:

    @jason this article wasn’t even created by a black person. But it’s evident from your comments that your full of misconceptions about reality. your characterization of blacks is fallacious. you believe them all to be attitude having, dark skin, nappy headed big lipped beast, which isn’t true. you chose to stereotype which is sad coming from a gay man, that can be characterized a bitter, lonely, limp wristed, bitch.

    honestly i don’t believe one self worth should be diminished by someone advertised non-preference. at least you know not to waste your time pursuing something.

    at some point you realise the world has assholes in it, and they have every right to put it on display.

  • psy said:

    @jason i smell haterade all the way. meh

  • Jeremy Gloff said:

    Dear Universe,
    I’d like to apologize on behalf of Jason for the stupidity and ignorance of his comments.

    Love,
    JG

  • Jason said:

    Why is assumed that just because affirmative action is imposed on white people, white people should also just bend over and give their bodies to the alter of affirmative action as well? Has it ever occured to you that maybe the majority of white people REALLY ARE NOT ATTRACTED TO BLACK GUYS? I for one am not attracted to dark, oil skin, the skin texture of black hair, the black features, or the personality traits more representative of black people. As much as we hear this tired mantra, there really ARE differences between most white people and most black people that extend beyond just skin color. Get over it. And how about the fact that black guys carry the hiv virus at about 10 times the rate of white guys?

    And your analogy about it being illegal to discriminate in the workplace based on race does not fit. Those laws were imposed on society by people in Congress. Who we have sex with is our own personal choice!

    And if you want to talk about discrimination, why is that that it seems like the majority of gay and bisexual black men don’t even want each other? I’ve seen it a hundred times where the black guys will pass each other up with no interest but as soon as they see an attractive blond buy, they purue him like flies on horse crap. Then you really see the entitlement come out, as no matter how much the white boy rejects them, they never seem to give up. Such behavior makes me even more repulsed by black guys.

  • Jason said:

    Bringing up the whole racism thing again, since that seems to always be the focus of black people, why is it that even though blacks are 13.5 percent of the American population, they are like half the ads on a4a? I for one am sick of seeing them.

  • Craig said:

    <>

    We have an openly proud racist troll on board here, folks. Ignore it and move along.

  • zack said:

    And it goes without saying that we here at The New Gay do not endorse Jason’s viewpoints.

  • WTF said:

    Oh Jason, Jason, Jason….tsk tsk tsk.

    Now that you have apparently appointed yourself as the spokesperson for all white people, I, if I were white, would cringe at every badly structured sentence you wrote.

    I understand that what you wrote came from your cold, diminutive heart, because after reading your barely comprehensible post (I had to read each poorly written sentence at least twice) I couldn’t imagine you have much of a brain to have conjured up such swill!

    I would ignore you as one brother suggested above, but I couldn’t just sit here and not point out how stupid you apparently are; and I say that without apology.

    I believe to try to help you understand the gist of this thread, would be a total waste of time. Instead I would just like to point out that you epitomize the very meaning of the Jeremy’s article. The downright mean-spirited vile, that still pervades so many in our community.

    You, poor thing, really have nothing to be proud about. Moreover, I thank providence, even the one so benevolently looks over you, that any person of color that walks on this earth does not have to come in contact with the likes of people as yourself. I almost feel sorry for the white men that you as delusional as you may be, do come in contact with you.

    It’s clear that nothing will change your heart, this is who you’ve turned out to be. You are welcomed to yourself. But I do hope that one day, when you’re old and alone, when not even those pesty black people won’t have anything to do with you, you think(?) back at this moment, and become aware of the psychic damage you cause others with your puny way of thinking.

    With that I offer you the title of Corruptio Optomi Pessima.

  • Randy said:

    Dear Ed,

    Thank you for saying what everyone refuses to say. “Paternalistic Liberal” is by far the worst creature I’ve run into. They refuse to recognize whatever desires they have and assume they can force their ego/subconscious to conform to their altruistic world ideals. If that were true I’d be straight right now. These super sensitive liberals are actually pressuring the gay world with the exact same proposal that Christian right-wingers demand-conform to my reality or be excluded as a corrupt/bigoted outsider.

    Randy

  • Ed said:

    Randy,

    I want to make it absolutely clear that we are not on the same page. You are making an entirely different point, and I do not share any aspect of your views. For all the problems I have with “paternalistic liberals,” I don’t have to deal with them shutting me out of the process because they don’t have a preference for me. If anything, they go out of their way to be accommodating. Instead of being themselves, they tend to be who they think I want them to be out of a sense of guilt. White guilt assumes that they are in some way culpable for any hardships I’ve experienced as a black American. The problem is, that I haven’t run into too many white folks who were able to buy their first home in their 20s because they didn’t have any college debt.

    White guilt is based on an assumption, and, instead of assuming things about people based on race, every person has the right to be treated like an individual. There are people of all races who have been robbed of opportunities (not by affirmative action). Efforts to assist individuals who need help should be focused on those who need it and not arbitrarily thrown at people because they are black, or gay, or female, or anything else.

    I read your earlier comment, and your position seems to be that the only person who matters is you and what you want. I’ll take a paternalistic liberal who is trying to do the right thing for the wrong reasons over a self-entitled individual trying to distort my words to justify his own warped perspective on the world.

    No thanks. I have no desire to play your reindeer games.

    Good luck with that,
    Ed

  • C A said:

    In my opinion A4A site is mostly for black people, maybe because its free not sure….. anyway I see A4A as a website mostly for sex encounters, and not dating and I hope everyone agrees. Now there are some people who are into some specific types and they wanted to make that clear, I’ve seen a lot of profiles also saying “not into whites”. I personally don’t care about it and I’m from a minority race. My choice is not to establish on my profile any race preferences, but of course when I get a message from someone I’m not attracted to it, I just simply delete it. As simple as that!

  • Devy said:

    @CA lmao, “In my opinion A4A site is mostly for black people, maybe because its free not sure”

    the only time there are tons of black guys on A4A is when your profile/acct is set towards a city that has a large black population.

  • WTF said:

    @ C A

    That’s quite an assumption. I agree Devy, have you looked at A4A NYC or California. Listen this conversation has really brought out one thing about our gay community, that is, that we have got as many racial issues as anyone community in the States. I have never played into the “we are family” diatribe. Well perhaps, as such, we are dysfunctional family.

    I have very little hope that we will ever be a country in which everyone get along, and sings together, while sharing a can of coke. That’s pure advertising duckies!

    I am very happy with the family and friends I have now. To pretend that we’re all going to get past the atrocities that we (black people) is anything but naive.

    There are still too many instances in which black people, and by black people I mean all black people from every country, from all three Americas, Europe, even further up into the uppermost hemisphere of the planet and of course the human mother land Africa, that have been, or will be, considered inferior by the likes of some people. Yes there has been some progress, but it’s been gradual. @ Molefsky, way up there, we may be one generation away from segregation…I’ll agree with that to the extent that people have become more savvy about how they will segregate. All I say is that we all have a looonnngg way to go.

    Example: The other day, I saw a description of a man that had just robbed an up-scale liquor store. Mind you now, I live in a pretty “up-scale, fairly mixed, liberal, gay-friendly, neighborhood. With that said. Back to the liquor store, where my white partner and I buy wine every now and then. One evening as we were walking past the store, we noticed a sign on their window warning the neighbor that they had been robbed, by an “unknown black man”, no further description was offer. I had to laugh at that one, because as written – it could’ve been me for that matter, or any “unknown” black walking past the store. Another particularity came up, were they also telling us that they knew all the black men in the neighborhood? Moreover they knew all the whites as well. JEEZ…they must be like the census takers for the world. You have to admit that’s kind of funny, but sad also.

    I got the same feeling when Jason, a few posters above, wrote what he had, probably in a drunken stupor after robbing the liquor store in black face. I’m just saying. You never know what people like HIM would do.

    Lastly, and I can’t be convinced otherwise. An individual person of any color, from any culture or race other than white, is suspect until proven otherwise.

  • spur210 said:

    @Jason
    “Has it ever occured to you that maybe the majority of white people REALLY ARE NOT ATTRACTED TO BLACK GUYS?”

    Interesting point, and let insert my experience(s) here:

    – It has occurred to me that the majority of gay white men IN THE UNITED STATES are not attracted to black guys.

    Which in my opinion very much implicates the history and culture in which all gay men in this country develop. As Ed says so eloquently above:

    “Any argument supporting “natural selection” in the choice of sexual partners implies that our entire existence is unnatural. There is no biological component to who we choose to screw. It’s based on the images we are inundated with from Madison Avenue and gay porn. Some guys like to pretend like there is an preference/race paradox.”

    I can CERTAINLY tell you, the “racial preference” you imply is NOT even close to a universal one for gay white men worldwide.

  • Randy said:

    Ed,

    Sorry you got everything wrong. There is nothing wrong with knowing what I want in life, especially a sexual/romantic partner. Moral selfishness is a virtue not a vice. I should keep myself stable and happy first so that I can and will be able to be a good part of other people’s lives.

    Randy

  • Devy said:

    This article has become really divisive. I really don’t believe it(the comments section) truly reflects the opinion of the gay community as a whole. People in the comments section are throwing out figures left and right, like they truly reflect the ideas of everyone; “majority of whites… not attracted to blacks” and a butch of other psycho babble about skin color issues.

    First attractiveness and who you are attracted to is relative, not all blacks look alike, that is a fact. They range in hues, facial features, educational levels, morality, values and behavior. White guys have a large spectrum to choose from, when it comes to from what we consider to be black , so to say most aren’t attracted to blacks is really absurd. Maybe they are just not attracted to a certain type. And I will grant some may not be attracted to any at all and thats their choice.

    Someone made the comment that black guys pass up other blacks for white guys, maybe there are other social factors that are implicated in their decisions; like values and education.

    White guys also pass up other whites for blacks or other non whites. San Diego has tons of mixed couple and that may just be a reflection of the area.

    I realise many of the comments here are just opinions and not a true census, but I don’t think people should use their perceptions are justification for their arguments. Perception is how you view the world and not necessarily how it truly is.

  • WTF said:

    It’s interesting that we have not heard one comment from a woman in this thread. I know the topic is about gay men sex websites, well it was at first, but it’s gone beyond that, if anything, at least to me, it has exposed the insipid and yet obvious racial split that exists in LGBT community, as it does in the rest of the country.

    Listen, I’ll be the first to say, that I harbor some anger toward the historical treatment of blacks and other people of color in this country. Why shouldn’t I? I have been a victim to it, as have many of my brethren on here. But it shames and angers me even further that we are content with allowing this treatment run rampantly through our community.

    We are in the midst of fighting for the legitimate right for gay people to marry, albeit a honorable fight. But when are we going to deal with our own mess? Stinking thinking, like Jason’s a few posts up, he’s just one of the “brave” ones that was willing to say what many people think. Sadly I have to include that even people of color fell as he does. Okay so we are free to think as we choose. Fuck as we choose. Who really cares? But I have come to the realization, that the “gay movement”, if there is such a thing, is purely run by and for the benefit of white males, much like the women’s movement is largely exclusive of women of color. Now why is that? Why are we not addressing that?

    The answer to me is simple. There is no overt talk about the privileges that many whites have enjoyed throughout the history of this country, and that includes ownership of property, much of the real money, and the freedom to dictate what is and will be considered the status quo. Any time a person of color attempts to bring this point forward, it is quickly cut down and diminish as divisive and not forward thinking. However, the reality is the we are living in a society that is divided, both racially and economically, and one in which historically people of color have been portioned to less than we are entitled, and that includes an equal say to our destiny. That has created a class of people that have had to “climb” up to the standards that were implemented by white society. Hey, that’s a reality, and if anyone is offended by that…well so am I!

    We in the LGBT community, are not set apart from ignoring racism among ourselves, even though we are considered anathema by many in our society, for whatever reason held on to. There is still amongst our community an avoidance of the reality of intra-racism and sexism. Until we start to address these issues as a community we will continue to have these discussions, that lead no where and are frankly boring. The equality we are demanding is only lip-service until we begin to realize that we are but a section of the whole, in which the same old derelict racial and class struggles continue.

    Sorry if I sound pessimistic, but I have seen nothing in our movement that depicts real change. Every gay pride march has become almost non-political, acquiescent to the little “freedoms” we have. Complacent. I pose that we’ve come a long way since the days in which gays and lesbians held meetings in dark recesses, and that we are somewhat more respected since then, but we have a very long way to go. The dialogue of where this “movement” is going and who this it represents has not been held yet;

    I don’t know it might upset the apple cart too much. Perhaps we’re not ready to dig deep, and look at the ugly amongst up, like Jason above. It’s easy to say, “oh let’s just not respond to him”, that dear friends is not taking the high road, it’s just fomenting a long help belief in the superiority of a particular group over another. I have no patience for that BS, and neither should anyone who is really working toward true equality. We are responsible not just for our rights, but for the rights of anyone that is being kept from the right to live freely in this country.

  • Adam said:

    Race is unfortunately a huge factor especially here in the United States. Racism especially towards blacks is something that is ingrained and can’t be helped or changed. Blacks especially black men are the most despised of here, no doubt and the reality of it, that will never change. Its tough for a black gay person not to be accepted by overall society to further deal with the ills of society in the gay culture. Its like blacks have nowhere to turn. Another unfortunate thing as that blacks as a race dont get along with one another often feeding on each other like wild piranhas in a fishbowl and turning on the other so their own communities offer very little to no resources to help them cope with the gay issue let along anything at that matter. In other socities such as those in europe and latin america, race doesent quite seem to be an issue at all. Its just here in the US and we are suppose to be the model nation of the world and pave the way to humanity, peacefulness, fullfillness. Its ironic that we are nowhere near that here. hmmm

  • Devy said:

    @adam lmfao, that’s bullshit

  • WTF said:

    @ Devy and Adam:

    First Devy:

    I don’t really understand your position. Isn’t the article based on preconceived notion that black men are summarily dismissed by some white men, and that said white men think they have the right to voice their preference, even if what they state can be construed as racist? I think that was the initial concept of the article anyway. But like any conversation, this one has evolved, and I don’t think it’s divisive at all. There are a few idiots like Jason, Jason, Jason..who after throwing in his worthless argument, hasn’t had the balls to defend it. But all in all, people will have their opinion, and, I think is a worthwhile discussion to have. The fact that discussion has been going on for months, should tell you something about the depth of the problem.

    As far as Adam’s statement is concerned, I think “that’s bullshit” is a bit harsh. Albeit some parts are arguable, just one for instance: “In other socities such as those in europe and latin america, race doesent quite seem to be an issue at all.” Well I don’t know about that Adam, I’ve been to Europe several times and have noticed just a tinge, if you will, of racism. I am also Latino, an Afro-Caribbean as we like to say, and I can tell you that race is definitely an issue amongst we Latinos.

    Really, here are some fine examples — go to:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7939841/France-experiencing-resurgence-of-racism.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/race

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60918Q20100110

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laplaza/2010/07/mexico-race-racism-black-face-televisa.html

    http://unspokenethnictruths.blogspot.com/2010/06/curious-case-of-racism-in-puerto-rico.html

    (Sorry I can’t hyperlink on here (cut and paste). BTW, the pic in the last URL is to die for! It’s worth the cutting and pasting, unless one is of the Jason ilk, and would be mortified by the mere thought).

    So as much as I would like to agree with you Adam, that the rest of the world has it right and we’re lagging far behind…Sadly, I have to sing here…”Everyone’s a little bit racist sometimes/Doesn’t mean we go around committing hate crimes….”.

    And no I don’t spend my days picking out news clips about racism from around the world. All it took was a few searches on the old WWW.

    Back to Devy,

    I found somethings you wrote curious:

    “First attractiveness and who you are attracted to is relative, not all blacks look alike, that is a fact. They range in hues, facial features, educational levels, morality, values and behavior. White guys have a large spectrum to choose from, when it comes to from what we consider to be black , so to say most aren’t attracted to blacks is really absurd. Maybe they are just not attracted to a certain type. And I will grant some may not be attracted to any at all and thats their choice.”

    OK, so “attraction is relative,” but relative to what? I can see it as subjective, but relative to, oh I don’t know, to eggplants?
    Oh excuse me..I forgot this was a gay site — aubergine?

    and…

    “…not all blacks look alike, that is a fact. They range in hues, facial features, educational levels, morality, values and behavior.”

    Well I thank you for that observation, really! But I would direct that statement to Jason the idiot above. BTW, I think he (Jason) forgot to add that we all have a peculiar smell too. But back to your statement, I would think it could describe just about everybody on the planet. Unbelievably enough, including whites!

    also…

    “White guys have a large spectrum to choose from, when it comes to from what we consider to be black , so to say most aren’t attracted to blacks is really absurd.”

    Hmmm..”…white guys have a large spectrum to choose from…”, I don’t know. Somehow I can’t help but feel as if we, black men, are being subjected to being marketed off for the pleasure of white men, as if we have no say in it at all, and gosh darn it..we should be happy to be picked out from the rest of the mealy-looking crowd. Just like horses or cows etc…

    and then there’s…

    “…so to say most aren’t attracted to blacks is really absurd. Maybe they are just not attracted to a certain type. And I will grant some may not be attracted to any at all and thats their choice.”

    Ahem…congratulations?

    Okay, so I’m poking a little fun at the issues at hand. Some of you even have the choice to not finding the funny at all! Ahhh…Freedom!

    Your last statement is the crux of this discussion. The argument is not who people have the right to bed with or not, the argument is about how some go about it. The question is whether or not people have the right to be rude toward each other, yes even blatantly racist, and yes even online. That’s the point of the article. Not whether one has no right to a choice.

    Look, I don’t know if the issues regarding race will ever be resolved anywhere. The point is, at least to me, that if racism is not discussed, if we do not address it’s existence, even in the gay community, then we are bound to it forever. I for one am more than willing to continue the discussion. In particular as how the issue impacts the gay community. It exists, let’s be big boys and put it all out in the open. I mean just recently there was an uproar (maybe a quiet one) over guys using “straight acting” in their ads. Somehow it was legitimate to get upset over that. Why not racism or sexism?

    It’s not divisive to discuss a problem and try to resolve it. Where would we be without people like Martin Luther King? It might be frustrating, it might be tiresome, but one thing I know it is, and that is a big, problematic issue that affects many people in adverse and awful ways, and well worth discussing.

    There are many “Jasons” out there, and they might have the right to their opinion, but their opinion should not keep the rest of intelligent and progressive people from moving forward.

  • WTF said:

    WOW! Look at that…the hyperlinks did work after all…thanks TNG!

  • Victimhood Feels Good! said:

    I don’t have a penis and those nasty bigots on A4A won’t play with me!! Rejection is never easy, life is a bitch get over it. A billion people on this planet are starving and this alledged racial injustice on a gay hookup site is what preoccupies your time? PUH-LEESE!!!

  • Another Jeremy said:

    A considerable amount of lunacy has ensued on this blog since I last commented. But after reading the comments and becoming very disenchanted, I felt compelled to leave my thoughts yet again. I must agree with WTF about the cowardice of not fully addressing Jason’s post both intellectually and morally and I will take the full burden of doing so upon myself shortly. Mostly, I take issue with these middle of the road views that employ semantics and intellectual prattling as a smoke screen to cloud the real issue, which is what does/does not constitute racist behavior. Just because the issue at hand is hookups/dating does not mean that it is taboo to identify certain patterns as prejudiced and or racist in nature. I will attempt a logical response and then I will express my disdain for guys like Jason and the issue in general in a separate post to come later.

    *Black=African American White=Men of European descent

    Jason dear, there are a large number of arguments you made that simply have to be shelved. You cannot have a preference against something, only for something. It is interesting that in your post you made mention of a good deal of things that repulsed you in men of African heritage, but nothing about what you prefer in men of European descent. Why is it interesting? Because of your insolent tone and indignation at the accusation of being racist for your behavior. If you just happen to like white guys more than ones you identify as black, then what are you so mad about? I maintain that it is merely the fact that being accused of racist behavior is extremely taboo, but almost every statement you made demonstrates a racial bias.

    “Why is assumed that just because affirmative action is imposed on white people, white people should also just bend over and give their bodies to the alter of affirmative action as well?”

    No one said anything about affirmative action, imposed or otherwise. Since we are talking about personal choices and not employment decisions, that was not very relevant at all. It does seem to reveal a very deep rooted feeling of bitterness that you seem to have against government aid to African Americans. You feel very much victimized (which any majority is very keen to do, ie straight america) by what you see as advantages that black men have, even though in reality they are nowhere near the overwhelming advantages that white men have for the simple reason that they are the majority. You think that black men seem entitled to white men, but in so thinking have missed the point entirely. Why is it that on a gay hookup site (the disgusting premise of which should be the topic of discussion on another blog) you feel it necessary to list things you do not want instead of what you do want and why is black one of them? How many black people have you been friends with Jason? How many black friends did your parents have? If the answer is exponentially smaller than that of white men (as I suspect it is given your ridiculous statements) maybe you should look harder at your behavior and realize that you have been conditioned to see black people as lesser or as a separate sect of society that has nothing to do with you. These things breed a superiority complex that has manifested itself in your sexual bias against black men.

    “Has it ever occured to you that maybe the majority of white people REALLY ARE NOT ATTRACTED TO BLACK GUYS?”

    You seem very confident speaking for the majority of gay white men, and it seems like you’re sort of hiding behind it. But the opinion of the majority has nothing to do with whether or not the behavior has a racial bias ingrained in it. So besides being completely baseless, the comment was not relevant.

    “I for one am not attracted to dark, oil skin, the skin texture of black hair, the black features, or the personality traits more representative of black people. As much as we hear this tired mantra, there really ARE differences between most white people and most black people that extend beyond just skin color. Get over it.”

    It is also interesting that you make very broad reaching statements about the behavior and physical features of black people, but do not do the same with white people. You have no predilection to a specific “specimen” of white men, because you do not have preconceived notions about the way they behave or look. There are as many varieties of black men, physical and otherwise as there are white, but you feel very assured in your opinion that black men act a certain way. Yes there are black people who act stereotypically black, but there are exceptions. Not that you have to go actively looking for them, but why are so decidedly opposed to the idea? Where do all of these strong ideas about the ways of black people come from and how do they compare to those you have with regard to other races? There are hillbillies and snooty white people galore and yet you feel no urge to write them off entirely. Why do you think that is? Hmm, I wonder.

    “And how about the fact that black guys carry the hiv virus at about 10 times the rate of white guys?”

    So you’re meeting up with men you met for the first time on a gay hookup site for the express purpose of having sex with them, and you’re only concerned about getting HIV from black men. Sigh.

    “And your analogy about it being illegal to discriminate in the workplace based on race does not fit. Those laws were imposed on society by people in Congress. Who we have sex with is our own personal choice!”

    No one is debating your right to choose. The issue is what it is that is making you choose a particular way, and in this case it seems apparent that a racial bias is affecting your decision. If you were saying I’m racist and I don’t care that would be one thing,but you can’t make racist statements and then take issue with being called racist.

    “And if you want to talk about discrimination, why is that that it seems like the majority of gay and bisexual black men don’t even want each other? I’ve seen it a hundred times where the black guys will pass each other up with no interest but as soon as they see an attractive blond buy, they purue him like flies on horse crap. Then you really see the entitlement come out, as no matter how much the white boy rejects them, they never seem to give up. Such behavior makes me even more repulsed by black guys.”

    In this instance your perceptions seem to be suspect. This is clearly not representative of all of the black community, assuming it is even true. I for one have seen black men be the object of the desires of many white men. It just goes person to person. The fact is that not as many black men as white are on top of things financially and emotionally enough to busily regale themselves in gay culture and be a hot commodity on the gay social scene (the gay scene, but again the factors that create that are related to an American culture that has stilted the prosperity of black men in a lot of ways. I highly doubt that you or many others for that matter make an informed decision to not be attracted to black men. Have you never seen a white person at a club be persistent after being rejected? Were you equally repulsed?

    Bringing up the whole racism thing again, since that seems to always be the focus of black people, why is it that even though blacks are 13.5 percent of the American population, they are like half the ads on a4a? I for one am sick of seeing them.

    So don’t look at them.

  • Another Jeremy for the last time said:

    And no Randy, it would not change things if it was a friendship site instead of a gay hookup site. Why should it be any less offensive to exclude sex partners (which most likely means you are excluding them as dating material as well) according to race than it is to exclude people as potential friends on the basis of the amount of melanin in their skin? It’s supposed to be different because it has to do with physical attractions, but not nearly as much so as people would have you believe. If we were just at the mercy of biological impulses every gay man in the world would be chasing after models and pornographic actors to no avail, and yet that does not often seem to be the case. The reason being that attraction has more to do with what is attainable than what some physical idealization of the male form. The black men who do have greater success within the homosexual dating arena as a whole are usually the ones who have done the best job of assimilating themselves into white culture. So many white men make choices based on looks, but a big piece of the puzzle is feeling like they are part of the gay “in-crowd” and have the wherewithal to reject/exclude someone from this club at their will. I maintain that finding a partner has more to do with finding someone who is of the same socio-economic level as yourself than it does in finding someone who looks a certain way. And many gay white men do not see black gay men as their equals, no matter how they try to disguise these sentiments.

    But let’s take it out of the racial arena and put it in the gay one. Do you know any heterosexual people? Surely you must. What if one said to you, “I do not want to be friends with you because I like having straight friends better than gay friends. It’s nothing personal, just my preference. Gay men have many times more sexual partners than their straight counterparts on average and yet still rarely partake in monogamous relationships. They tend to be emotionally unstable, superficial, effeminate and they are even much more likely to to commit suicide. Not to mention I don’t want one of them hitting on me. As such it is my prerogative to choose my friends on the basis of their sexual orientation. I’m not homophobic, it’s just my choice.” What would you make of that? Now what most people would do is take issue with his assertions, but let’s be honest. On their face those statements are true to a large degree. Gay men are often hyper sexualized and self-loathing. But what is it about his position that just doesn’t seem right? Um, how about the fact that while he was saying may have the ring of truth to it, it is in NO WAY an accurate realization of the full spectrum of the homosexual experience. Gay men are raised to believe something is wrong with them, even in upper middle class families. Homosexuality is still seen as a perversion and we are conditioned to feel shame for what we are. We are on the jagged edge of societal norms and every gay man I have ever met has felt the sting of intolerance and/or outright homophobia.

    So it goes with black people. Yes black people do have a high instance of HIV, they are often impoverished and participate in stereotypically negative behaviors. But maybe you should give pause before you start spouting off dilemmas that plague African-American culture and look at the whole goddamn picture. Black people who are but 50 years old grew up in a society in which it was perfectly acceptable to have “colored only” written above bathrooms. It took 300 years from the time the first slaves were brought to America to the time when they were legally considered equal in the eyes of the government. I’m not trying to be Jesse Jackson, and I’m certainly not saying history accounts for all of the evil deeds of black people, but you’ve gotta be fucking kidding me if you say it isn’t a large contributing factor. In addition, there are far fewer black people who can serve as role models for the younger generations, and as such ignorance breeds more ignorance, crime breeds more crime and poverty breeds more poverty.

    You do not have to have sex with a black man to not be intolerant. But you do have to be OPEN TO THE IDEA THAT SOME PEOPLE MAY DEFY THE STEREOTYPES! Not all black men look the same! Not all black men speak a certain way! Not all black men have oily skin and afros! Am I really having to say this in the year 2010? Saying I am not attracted to black men is along the same line of thinking that white people used in telling their kids that black people were just fine, but but mama would prefer it if you just played with your own kind. Get real people. You either see everyone as they same or you don’t.

    But you know what REALLY pisses me off? Why is it that no one gives a shit about discrimination until it hits home? Gay men who have most assuredly been discriminated against don’t take the life lessons they should have learned from these instances and apply them to other facets of their interactions, but instead choose to alienate themselves from anyone who doesn’t have blue eyes and a pair of skinny jeans. I bet these same sanctimonious fags that spew racist bile all over the internet will be first in line in the gay pride marches screaming “Equal Rights for Gays?” Why was the “black vote” a large factor in the passing of Proposition 8 when they have fought racial injustice for centuries? Why is it that gay men are still having to explain to grown well-educated people that not all homosexuals are child molesting hair dressers and then turn around and write no thugs on their profile on a gay hookup website that likely wouldn’t even exist without the intense shame that is put on them by heterosexual society? Maybe people should learn how to use their critical thinking skills to come to the astonishing conclusion that prejudice begets more prejudice. Maybe minorities of every kind should be the ones setting the standards for tolerance instead of intolerance. If anything the two should be on the same side instead of doing on a smaller scale what society at large has done to each group. Jason and Randy, grow the fuck up. You’ve embarrassed yourselves with your shortsightedness. Rant ended. The matter has begun to disgust me. Besides, since I’m a black gay man I have a full evening of frying chicken and giving people AIDs to look forward to.

  • WTF said:

    @ Victimhood

    “I don’t have a penis and those nasty bigots on A4A won’t play with me!! Rejection is never easy, life is a bitch get over it. A billion people on this planet are starving and this alledged racial injustice on a gay hookup site is what preoccupies your time? PUH-LEESE!!”

    You fail to see the big picture here. Yes the argument is regarding behavior on a gay hook up site.

    First: the racial bias is not “alleged”, it’s real, at is it is for many people.

    Secondly: if you stop and think about it, the argument posited are more about the “alleged racial injustice on a gay hookup site”. It’s about the inherent racism in the country. You may be one of the lucky ones that have not had to experience racism – good for you. But for those of who have, the topic is more than a “preoccupation”, it is what we face every single day of our lives. Whether overt or covert, racism is still a factor in our lives.

    Thirdly: if you are gay, then you would know the impertinence under which we live, every day. Not to mention the violence that many gay people experience daily (Uganda, Jamaica, London, USA, India, Iran..etc) the daily threat of being bashed or being murdered. Surely, you would want us to get over that as well!

    Fourthly, I don’t know what you mean “I don’t have a penis and those nasty bigots on A4A won’t play with me!!”. The answer to that part of the question will be another question, and I’m being serious here, s that because you are a woman or some other biological phenomena? If it is because you are a woman, well dear, it’s a gay site for men who like to have sex with men, that’s not a preference, that has a biological base to it. If you don’t have a penis and male because of a biological anomaly, then I am sorry, but that I don’t understand, but you have neither made that clear, your privacy would be your preference.

    Fifth: Sadly, billions of people are starving all over the world. Have noticed that many of those billions are people of color. Do you think that that was just happenstance? I happen to think not. I think people starve because of greed, and that’s because a much smaller percentage of people control the flow of most of the money in this world. I think that’s a good point to bring up during a discussion on the ramifications of racism.

    So to answer your question, no “alleged” racism on a gay hookup site is not the only thing that preoccupies me.

  • Alex said:

    Well, Not only “Black’s” I have see so many Black guys who own the A4A Id they are one who brought up the color issue on that site – start saying “NO WHITE’s” No Indian and No Asian – lol

    I think people need more education and we need to ignore the ignorant

  • WTF said:

    Ignoring the ignorant will only keep the ignorance alive. Personally I think that is the wrong route, but everyone has their way of dealing. If we need more education, what better place than to start with the ignorant? Otherwise it’s only preaching to the choir.

  • Jay said:

    I find it interesting that so many people are in agreement with the statement above. the majority of the guys here sound socially conscious and we should meet up sometime just a friendship group. :)

  • WTF said:

    Let’s have a unity party!

  • selfish said:

    Have you ever watched small children play, ages 2 and 4 years of age? They do not see color only actions as one child refuses to share,results in to hitting or throwing a fit. Children do say to one another, I do not like you because your black,white etc.. they may cry at first because they are being introduced to something they have never seen before but if you actually watch them they adapt. “preffrence” is taught through society and different cultures, family views and upbrings.I may not be the brightest crayon in the box but I don’t need a PHD to know this. Physical apperance is also taught to use again by society,television, ads,friends and family, etc… these things dectate to us what is to be accepted and what is not. Case and point, what is more desired long,straight hair or curly,course thick hair? I dont have to even answer that question. Society dictates what is IN and what is OUT. As for A4A, YES I do think some things should be monitered especially word usage.

  • Teesoup said:

    Geographically, I do notice that some U.S. locations on A4A are predominately black and others mostly white. Of course we are going to have morons on these types of sites, regardless. I do agree that many of the “preferences” expressed on A4A exemplify underline racism and discrimination toward others. Most of these negative remarks usually are made by shallow white boys who think they are God’s gift to online hook-up sites. I guarantee you they won’t say these things in public; knowingly they would get an ass whooping. The thing that really errs me is when they say “Just my preference, sorry”… Why apologize? I don’t get it. You ain’t all that!

    We all have our preferences. As a black guy, I’ve been rejected by other black guys because they prefer white/latino guys. I got the message, and I move on.

    I remember Asian guys were once hugely rejected on gay hook-up sites. They are very popular now, especially in California. However, majority of their profiles usually mention “white guys only”. Now, I live in San Diego and it shocks me when I get messages from Asian guys. They aren’t my preference, and I’ll let them know that if they ask to hook-up or I just don’t respond. There are ways of being cordial when not interested. You don’t have to be rude. Email messages can easily be deleted. If you don’t like chocolate, so be it, but don’t be nasty about. Even when profiles quote “No Black Guys, just my preference, sorry”. It is still demeaning, in which some were meant to be. I agree with Jeremy. A4A shouldn’t allow such language usage. If you state clearly what you want in your profile, there shouldn’t be a reason to list what you don’t want when it relates to people race and body image. However, I think most of us gay men have issues with our sexuality, race, body image, age, and so on. A lot of white men have problems, too on A4A. There are a lot of flakes and phony profiles on there. We can’t take gay sex sites too seriously. Even the cutest white/Latino guys have their moments of being offended and discriminated against.

  • GrChi said:

    As a black gay male, I’ve experienced much racial hatred within the gay community…and I didn’t have to visit a gay dating/sex site either. It seems the gay black male in a predominantly gay white culture is always looked at as undesirable on many levels…and most of the time, this comes across in a very subtle way. I’ve experienced indifference almost all the time with nonblack gay men. They smile in your face and sometimes act friendly toward you, but they’ll never allow you to get close to or develop a platonic friendship with them…even if you both share the exact same interests and common likes. It wouldn’t be so bad if this was a rare occurrence. But sadly, it’s very common.

  • WTF said:

    The racial schisms in society and how we as a gay community reflect that divide is revealing in this discussion, considering it has been going on for nearly 7 months.

    It’s unfortunate that our community refuses to look at itself as a microcosm and reflection of our cultural influences, ugly as they may be. Like the “women’s movement”, which heralded a new time for women, it was a mystery to women of color that they were not represented. They had to start their own movement, and address their own needs. It wasn’t till many years later, that women saw each other as one, that all shared the same oppressor. Every year we parade down our main streets to show our unity and that we look beyond our differences, forming a rainbow or a collected mind, however the reality is that we have not.

    It’s very easy for the desirable among us to stay above the fray of the reality of racism, ageism, and of not being the perfect epitome of the beloved figure of the preferred image, especially if one has never experienced it, or has the luxury of ignoring it. The tentacles of racism are always moving and far-reaching, and sucks the life and dignity that we should have in common. So many of us refuse to let go of what we learned, the lies, the demonization, of those that don’t fit in, just so.

    We are not and have not yet become immune to what is still a part of the fabric of this country and it’s history. It takes a lot of reflection to get to the point at which each individual has to take responsibility for their own short-comings.

    When this site first went on line under the title of “The New Gay”, I couldn’t help by question what that actually meant. Because what I saw was the same ole holier than thou attitude, with no regard to what it meant to have the obligation to really be all inclusive. The New Gay, seemed to be suggesting, that The Old Gay was somehow invalid. Again, a suspending of reality was driving this new generation, while negating the opportunity for actual unity in the community.

    Self-reflection is troublesome and most of us are too lazy to investigate what motivates us to treat each other unskillfully. However, I was very surprised when I read this article written so many months ago. It offered a glimmer of the promise of self-actualization.

    Many questions should be asked of ourselves. Why are we not more vocal about our continued oppression? Why have we become so complacent with our own development? Why is there so much division in our community? Why do so many of us deny that one of the most natural of urges we share as humans, sex, is somehow seen as a vector of disease, that one the Old Gay brought upon us all, therefore, the New Gay having to rise above that which we all desire? Why do we continue to segregate by race, and class structure? I can’t help but think of the psychological conflict between the house n***er vs. the field n***er vs. the favored and seemingly more powerful race. None of us escapes the tragic figures of our history, until we all become honest with ourselves and learn to reverse the status quo.

  • GrChi said:

    I just wanted to add that I’m very grateful and thankful for WTF, and all the other posters for sharing their thoughts and experiences. It’s good to hear that there are gay men out here that actually get it and can articulate the feelings. I personally would like to get involved with others within the gay community to do something which could bring about change, but there seems to be a resistance to change or a belief that it wouldn’t do any good. Everyone is accepting the status quo. So unless we all band together and get some STRONG organization behind our mission to create a more accepting and tolerant community, things will probably never change.

    I want to also add that just because you’re not sexually attracted to someone, doesn’t mean that you can’t be their friend, especially if you both share common interests. And also, stop worrying about what your family or friends might think if you want to hang out or be friends with someone of another race. This isn’t high school. You’re an adult and should be able to live your life without having such hangups.

    And lastly, I want to give a shout out and thanks to Jeremy Gloff for posting a powerful article.

  • Chris said:

    Man I think you must be in Seattle. The black population is really disproportionate up here than to the rest of the country. Ive been contemplating moving out just because I’d like to be around more colorful people. wheres a good place?

  • James Christopher said:

    As a ‘bi-racial twink’ as some would refer to me as if you had a look at my picture. let’s face it people, some people may change and take it down from their profiles, and the rest will continue to be bigots. For the people this article made a difference for, congrats to you. For the people it didn’t, thank you, because I just saved myself some time not having to converse with you only to find out you’re not my cup o’ tea.

  • Jeremy Gloff said:

    for anyone interested, this was a follow-up piece I wrote awhile back:
    http://thenewgay.net/2010/08/why-am-i-not-attracted-to-black-men.html#comments

  • Jeremy Gloff said:

    I’m sorry the link I posted jumped ahead to the comments. Should get on the computer before my morning coffee I guess. To see the story click here:
    “Why Am I Not Attracted To Black Men”:
    http://thenewgay.net/2010/08/why-am-i-not-attracted-to-black-men.html

  • Another Jeremy said:

    This blog is much more provocative and less offensive than the other so I decided I would leave my thoughts and would be interested in anyone’s take on my analysis.

    A made a very good point and I actually disagree with Tech’s contention that we should all strive to see the beauty in everyone. Regarding everyone as beautiful is the same as not regarding anyone as beautiful, I just think this attraction should (and most often does for everyone with respect to everything other than race) vary from person to person. Each new attraction is rule unto itself. There is a very important distinction between what A said and what I interpret as the point of the post. A talked about being ATTRACTED TO people who had a specific kink as opposed to being UNATTRACTED TO people who do not have the same kink. Many gay white men are quite sure in that they don’t like black men, but reserve such a broad judgment for all everyone else. I think there is a fundamental difference between being physically allured by people who have a certain characteristic and repelled by those who have another one. It’s like the difference between saying I really like bananas, and I hate oranges. You can really like bananas and still like oranges, but you can’t hate oranges and like oranges at the same time. You cannot say I hate oranges and then say you have no bias against oranges. And thus you cannot say I am not attracted to black men and then say that statement has no bias against black people. This is a non sequitor. How many men have you met who say I am not attracted to Middle Eastern Men? Men who are Russian? The two racial backgrounds I often hear reviled are black and oriental, and I think it’s simply because they are often the easiest to distinguish with the naked eye as different than white.

    I do disagree with the assertion that the requirement for attraction often lies elsewhere. Again, I pose the question why that race in particular? After probing white people with a handful of questions about their exposure to African-American men, they have almost invariably never had a black friend. When I was younger people used to say to me, “You don’t talk black.” I got to a point where I asked them what that meant, and the answers were usually the same old “take it easy man” bullshit lines that white people always use when confronted about racism in a way that makes them feel guilty. The standards for what is acceptable with respect to race relations have changed drastically over even the last part of the century. You cannot refuse to serve someone a cheeseburger at a restaurant because of the color of their skin anymore. You cannot be sent to jail for being a participant in an interracial marriage. You can’t just lynch someone in the town square. But I think people are lying to themselves if they think the past is not lingering in some ways, and this dating issue is as fine an example as any. The trouble is that it’s hard to know what people are thinking, especially when people are very adept at lying to themselves about what they think. All this intellectual prattling does not distance the realities of the issue from white people just saying “I don’t date niggers” nearly as much as people want to think it does. All that has advanced is our method of discussing it. And if some white people get incensed by this rhetoric, I have only thing to say about it: FUCK YOU! I invite your indignation. I am sick and tired of white people trying to conflate white guilt with black disenfranchisement. If you wanna say you don’t date black people that’s cool. But don’t get mad when someone calls you racist. There seems to be this attitude like America has come so far with respect to race relations, and that black people should just shut-up and be grateful. That’s not good enough. You either see black people as your equal in every way or you do not. There is nothing in the middle.

  • Dave said:

    Whats the big deal, when it comes to sex people have their preferences. its just like if you into guys or girls. if a girl running around on a4a, im sure she ain’t getting any lucky that night.

    and i love black guys lol

  • chi said:

    It is tougher than tough being black anywhere but especially in the gay community. If your black, you really don’t have a real chance of enjoying the gay community like that of nonblacks. I’ve seen a lot of my white and Latino friends constantly talking to guys, having stories of dates they go on, relationships they acquired, the frequent looks from other guys and being approached and what not. Its like watching a movie of something of an unobtainable and distant dream for me. My friends approached me and ask me why aren’t certain things happening for me, why am I always alone. I told them to take a good look at me, would they themselves ever talk to me or approach me or anyone else like me in that sort of way. I saw in their eyes they quickly got the point. I’ve started to distance myself from them and the gay community ad a whole. My world is truly a dark gray and lonely one. If iam so unworthy that this is how things are for me, I not worthy of living. It’s truly a punishment from god to be born black, I believe that to heart. I wouldn’t be surprise shortly after writing this, I take my life, I have no desire or will to live anymore.

  • Another Jeremy said:

    I agree with you Chi. But I do not think you should take your own life. Email me if you so desire.

    MrGuy1804@yahoo.com

  • Camsex said:

    Das ist echt Very Good.

  • Another Jeremy said:

    *I agree that black men face a special kind of ostracism in the “gay community,” not that it is a punishment from God to be born black.

  • Craig said:

    Dear Chi,

    Do not take your life. It does get better! Would be happy to talk to you about the intersection of race, sexuality and depression.

  • sqt said:

    Ok another gay race thread on TNG.

    Maybe it’s time to get a little more graphic here. Yes, I am attracted to white guys. However I’m not attracted to EVERY SINGLE WHITE GUY out there. Even many white guys whom many people find attractive, do absolutely nothing for me.

    I’m more attracted to really unique physical attributes that are quite precise and actually kind of hard to pinpoint. I just know it when I see it. For instance, Jonny Depp does NOTHING for me. I can’t explain why even though many people swoon over him. Chris Evans however pushes all my buttons. HARD.

    Body hair is interesting. I like body hair on a man. I like it in sufficient quantities. However, i don’t like hairy backs and shoulders, even if I find myself plucking a few hairs from my own body in those areas. LOL. I like hairy legs and chests, but I like the hair to be soft and straight and not too wiry. My own chest hair is a bit wiry, and so i trim it to keep it neat. I guess I wouldn’t date myself.

    I have a thing for blue and green eyes. Just not at the same time. Tall guys are a huge plus. The taller the better.

    So lots of soft body hair, blue or green eyes and extremely tall men. For some reason this is what my brain is programmed to find attractive. As genetics would have it, these features combine only in one demographic on Earth — men of European descent. Not all of them have this combination, in fact a small portion of them do. But that’s what turns me on. I couldn’t change it if I tried. And trust me I’ve tried to love women for the first half of my life with very unsatisfying results.

  • sqt said:

    I just saw the post from Chi. Please don’t follow through on this. I too suffer from depression. The sooner you realize that it is a disorder of the brain, which can be treated with medication and diet, much like diabetes, high blood pressure, etc., the sooner you will be able to lessen its symptoms.

    I live with depression every day of my life. It affects me more physically with aches and pains than it does with my mood. I’ve taken medication for 15 years to cope with it with varying success. There are some very strong new medicines out there that are working.

    Once you get the depression under control you will be able to have the mental and physical strength to come to terms with your place in this world and to surround yourself with people who affirm who you are. I will never get a date with Chris Evans (see my previous post above), as much as I would feel his love is the only thing that would give me affirmation for living. But it’s unattainable. And when my brain isn’t functioning well I confuse this fantasy with what is really important in life.

    Please seek help. It’s not a sign of weakness to treat a disease that is fairly common and treatable. Good luck!

  • WTF said:

    Chi, what you are going through is common, not easy, not to be minimized, but common, in people with similar feelings. I know exactly what you are feeling. That God awful sense that one does not belong anywhere, isolated, distraught etc. It is depression.

    Depression, as sqt mentioned there are many methods to come to a comfortable point in oneself, but it takes work, and your life is worth that work, believe us. Please seek help. If there is some way to contact you I would be more than happy to talk with you. The classic “you don’t have to go through this by yourself” statement is very true. Try not to isolate, and most of all, don’t forget who you are. It sounds to the world to me that you are probably very sensitive to the world, many whom live with the condition of depression, also tend to be a little hyper-sensitive to their environment, both emotionally and physically. There is a way out. Take a good look at your disparity and use it to launch yourself into wellness. It does get better.

    I’m not going to tell you to start to read self-help books, and the like, but am going to suggest that you read up on the symptoms of depression and what you can do to get help. Here’s one site that was very helpful to me:

    http://psychcentral.com/ or call (800)950-6264

    Both sources have tons of resources, and even a for LGBT support. I know that you want to distance yourself from the gay community, however, there are many places that will know from where you are speaking. It’s difficult to find the distinction at times, but there are people in the LGBT community that are willing to help. There are no people that can help each more than people that are experiencing the same things one is. I found my shrink through the web site, and have been very happy with the results so far. There, you could also find local services, that might direct you to services that would best suit your needs.

    Depression is insidious by nature, it strikes at the most vulnerable of times, but mostly concentrates of your most hidden self-image. You may think that you don’t fit the gay “mold” of beauty, try to realize that not too many of us do. It is an unattainable beauty, only a fantasy, one that has alluded many. Your friends whom you see getting all that they want, aren’t the ideal of beauty either. I remember feeling the same way you do. Feeling that all my friends were better looking than I. It wasn’t true then, as it isn’t now, yet I was convinced that that was my reality.

    I am a Afro-Caribbean man, and it was very disturbing to be passed over as less attractive than my Latino friends because they fit the image of the ideal Latinos. It’s a very defined and explicit image, but one born of ignorance and, yes, to a large extent racism. I know many don’t like to think about attraction and racism in the same context, but there are ties, no matter what some may dismissively say. However our job is to find what makes us distinct, and learn to live and love with whom that person is.

    You may believe that your friends are “happier” because they are found to be more attractive. But you can’t be certain know what lurks in their minds. All you hear is their babbling. Everyone hurts at some point or place in their lives.

    The pain you feel is real, depression is a combination of many emotions, the work is to sort them all out, and find that wonderful human being inside of you, no matter what the “ideal image” of beauty is in the LGBT diaspora. You and you alone are the ideal image of who you are. Don’t give up, find help.

  • WTF said:

    “Victimhood Feels Good! said:

    I don’t have a penis and those nasty bigots on A4A won’t play with me!! Rejection is never easy, life is a bitch get over it. A billion people on this planet are starving and this alledged racial injustice on a gay hookup site is what preoccupies your time? PUH-LEESE!!!”

    @ VFG!,

    It’s hysterical how you can make the distinction between people starving all over the world and personal sexual rejection based on race or gender, yet not make the connection between the suffering of those starving billions based on racism and sexism.

    Before you tell people to “get over it”, try and get over your myopic perspective. Yes there is suffering in the world, but suffering is neither quantifiable or qualifiable, big or small, it’s still suffering.

  • Dee said:

    I’m black and I honestly don’t care about people’s preferences, because I have my own. These people just need to learn some simple manners.

    1. State what you like/prefer, don’t even bother listing what you aren’t sexually attractive to.

    2. PLEASE DO NOT, ABSOLUTELY DO NOT add a “SORRY” to your preferences. It makes you look really conceded, like you’re on some pedestal. Why would someone apologize for a preference. Believe me, when it comes to whatever type of person you are excluding, everybody in that category DOES NOT WANT YOU, and a fair amount aren’t attracted to you anyway.

  • Boris said:

    I personally agree with the stance that there is a clear distinction between personal sexual tastes and, say, passing somebody over for a job for some reason unrelated to their ability. People just can’t help what they’re turned on by, and they don’t have a duty to be even-handed in their sexual tastes, which may be totally unrelated to their personal values.

    Additionally I don’t think there’s anything inherently dysfunctional about the phrase ‘no black guys please, it’s just a preference.’ I’ve certainly been excluded in similar ways for variously being short / bald / over 30 etc. but it hasn’t bothered me, firstly because I believe that tastes can’t be helped, and because there will be others with different tastes.

    There’s a danger of pathologising rejection here–because if you set the bar for offense so low, exactly what reason could be given for rejecting somebody that wouldn’t be misconstrued as prejudice against some physical characteristic?

    Of course there’d be an issue if somebody used ‘niggers’, ‘oldies’, or ‘fatties’ instead, as that would be signify a generalised disdain of that group beyond sexual tastes.

    Finally and at great risk of stoking the fire here I can’t help but point out the irony of an article bemoaning the lack of tact or consideration on a4a profiles by the same person who goes on proffer this mature and measured assessment of one of his detractors:

    “I bet a million bucks the above ‘anonymous’ commenter has a super douchey A4A profile”

    Again this makes me think that this post is more about a personal intolerance towards rejection than anything else.

  • WTF said:

    @ Boris,

    I would agree with you that this isn’t about rejection. As I remember at the start of this conversation so many months ago, the point be made was whether or not having to make racial preferences known is necessary at all. Moreover if members of these site can courteously pass on someone’s invite.

    I never seem to have a problem doing so. My profile is purposely written as to not offend anyone. There is nothing inherently wrong with being cordial either.

  • Another Jeremy said:

    I think the problem is that most gay men equate sexual attraction with love or something of emotional substance. They seem to know exactly what they want physically, yet they tend to have very lax standards about a person’s disposition and moral fiber.

  • WTF said:

    @ Jeremy

    Agree, that’s the problem. Again, I will bring up the question, a very simple question: If standing in a bar and someone chatted one up, and they were not one’s type, would any of us respond face to face, “Sorry, no ________(fill in the blank), just my preference, no offense”? I doubt very much that would be the case.

    Most people are not so stupid that they would not pick up when they’re not going make a home run hit. It’s plain to see that a different set of standards have emerged out of the internet sex scene. So the obvious does not have to made, well, so obvious. To suggest that the parameters of personal offense should lowered, is tantamount to saying, that no one should be offended by any sort of perceived slight, because it makes so difficult on others edit their behavior. That’s just way too easy.

    Frankly, personally, I’ve reduced my sex web search on certain sites specifically because of this type of behavior. It’s just not tolerable to me. Prefer to go on some where there is still some modicum of respect. That, and beside the fact that at least one of those sites I no longer visit is run by ultra-conservative gay right-wingers, whom I suppose make their living through their lack of moral fiber. They vote against their own people, yet take our money. Knuckleheads.

  • cntryman said:

    I didn’t take the time to read all of the posts on this topic, so not sure how the others felt about this, but as for me…..give me a break. I’m sick to death of every damn thing in the world having to be politically correct and of having to be careful not to offend a certain race. Especially when that race often makes many public comments about whites with no thought about how they sound or who they offend. Just listen to a black stand up commedian and you’ll hear things that a white could never say about another race!

    If I am not physically attracted to other races for sex, then that’s my damn business and I should be free to say so. SO should anyone else. I’d rather let a guy know this up front than to set up a meeting with him and then walk away when I see that he’s not my racial choice.

    It is a preference of many people, so get the hell over it !

  • WTF said:

    @ cntryman Your attitude is exactly what this conversation is about. If you did take the time to read some of the other comments, you would understand that the thread is not about what one’s sexual preference is but how one goes about having enjoying their sexual preference without offending others, and why we, all of us, think it’s admissible online. Yes you do have the right to bed with whoever you want, be they white, black, Asian, Native American, or whatever. The question is, is it necessary to word it bluntly? A very simple question.

    From what I’ve experienced, heard and witnessed, there’s no denying that all people are a little bit racist, as the song in Avenue Q goes, again the question is, does one have to be offensive about it? I’ll bet you everything you own, that you would not behave the same way as you probably do online, when face with a person face-to-face. Online behavior is especially revealing simply because we all have the advantage of anonymity.

    Your example of black comedians is not exactly what this thread is about, although I do understand what you mean. Comedians, if you haven’t noticed, have a tradition of using race as part of their act. All comedians! Or do you just notice the black comedians? It’s the comedians job to make the absurdities of life apparent. They are the epitome of not being PC. So that argument doesn’t really hold water here. A more appropriate example would be a black man on a sex site, listing his preferences a same race only. A practice that I also find unnecessary.

    I’ll ask the same question I have been asking since this thread started so long ago. If standing in a bar, and someone you did not find sexually attractive started to chat you up, would you tell that person, “No (fill in the blank), sorry just my preference?

    People are good at picking up subtle signals, especially when it comes to sex. The sledge hammer effect is not needed. If your sick and tired of having to be PC about everything, perhaps you should think about why having to be PC has evolved in the first place.

  • Teesoup said:

    @ cntryman, you should really take in consideration that this is a problem above and beyond racial preference and black comedians (where did this come from?). As you’ve mentioned, you did not read most of the comments. Well, you should read them all. It’s not about not being desired by another race; it’s about how it is expressed. Common knowledge (worldwide)shows that OUR country is racist and prejudice. This also includes the gay community. I could care less if some white, Asian, or Latin boy ain’t feelin’ me. Unfortuately, this dones not apply to some black guys. I really wish that this generation of all young gay men understand the levelof people’s inner being when it comes to issues like race relations; especially with gay people. I have personally seen white guys sneak around with black guys for sex and completely ignore them in public when they are around their boyfriends. I personally have been hit up on hook-up sites by white boys who say “white and latin only” in their profiles. And, I do bring this to their attention. I guess being horny makes you lower your standards. Words can be hurtful, offensive, mean, demeaning…I can go on. On Adam4Adam, some comments from non-blacks are just rude and unnecessary. Yes, we all have our preference, but do not degrade me because you are not attractive to my skin tone or my black attitude. It’s even worst with Latin and Asian guys. One day, they will understand that they are still looked at as just good enough for sex.

  • verizon please said:

    @teesoup

    I’m confused. You’re saying that white guys (when horny) hook up with you regardless of what you look like? And then later on you say “Yes, we all have our preference, but do not degrade me because you are not attractive to my skin tone or my black attitude.”

    You’re contradicting yourself. Why would they hook up with you if they’re not attracted to your “skin tone and black attitude.” This makes no sense. If they’re not attracted to you, then they’re not going to get physically aroused. If they’re not aroused then they’re not going to get it on. So WTF are you yapping about?

    I sleep with men to whom I’m attracted on many levels. Physical is only one of these aspects. If I’m horny and no one is around to whom I’m attracted, then it’s just me and the internet, not just any old piece of scruff I find on the street.

    Frankly, I refuse to believe that the “gay elite” white boys are sneaking around the shed for a quickie with some “black attitude” queen. Either somebody turns you on or they don’t.

    Don’t paint a scenario where all these hot white boys are leading double lives but then ignore you on the street with their friends. That may sound like high drama in a Keith Boykin novel but hardly what happens in real life.

  • Craig Gidney said:

    Frankly, I refuse to believe that the “gay elite” white boys are sneaking around the shed for a quickie with some “black attitude” queen. Either somebody turns you on or they don’t.

    Don’t paint a scenario where all these hot white boys are leading double lives but then ignore you on the street with their friends. That may sound like high drama in a Keith Boykin novel but hardly what happens in real life.

    @verizon please:

    Thanks for completely invaliding Teesoup’s experience./sarcasm

    Your post, with its coded racialized language is a perfect example of what racist discourse looks like in 2011.

  • WTF said:

    This thread, almost a year old now, abysmally presents the problem of the dualities regarding racism. No one can see how we all contribute to the its existence. We all have a myopic view of each other. It is only until we get to know someone personally, that we allow ourselves to see each other as people, and not as a person of color, or a person of pallor (just kidding kids), or an Asian, or an thug, or preppy etc…

    We, humans tend to categorize it’s the way our brain works. It’s how we’ve evolved into what we are. We make judgments, and size each other up immediately, instinctively assessing the situation as either friendly and safe or not.

    Unfortunately, this instinct, if you will, has been twisted and turned and misshapen into the imbroglio that is racism. Somehow, somewhere, and at some time, one race started to consider itself superior to others. So much so that for the most part, that by design, others were made to subjugate to them, and this is just considering, a very small development in that wide spectrum that is the evolution of the human mind, and how it works to inculcate myths in order to protect the body it sits in.

    Look, making distinction, and developing preferences is a natural process of our development. However when it comes to sex, and race, whether we like to be with our own, or develop attraction to others different from ourselves is all perfect and acceptable. The bottom line is are we willing and/or capable of looking at others as human, and offering them the respect and consideration that we would like for ourselves.

    Telling people to “get over it”, finding fault in others, while not really reflecting on one’s own behavior, is shallow and full of deprivation. We tend to forget all the insidious lessons that have been taught to us as we individualize from our first caregivers. Moreover we tend to dismiss each other experiences all too easily.

    The schisms will never grow less, unless we make the effort, and talk honestly or our own shortcomings, and investigate our own beliefs. Until that happens, all this talk about preference, and whether or not one has the “right to”, do this or think that is hogwash.

    Now just to reiterate, I am not talking about forcing oneself to bed with anyone that their not attracted to, but more importantly, at least for me, is to try to investigate the hidden or forgotten messages of each other that we’ve have learned and act on. Race and sexual behavior is not as simplistic as some of you propose.

    We as gay men have a lot to work with. We are still a group of people that have a lot against us. Although we have seen some progress toward our assimilation into the more homogeneous society, we are still outcasts, because or our sexual identification. We need to become better at deciphering, what we should accept from this society, and what we should attempt to change. To deny there is racism in our community is just plain indolence and will do nothing to make our community better.

    Every year we march in celebration of the diversity and of our pride, yet we do so while holding on to the conventional behavior that has lent nothing to progress of our society.

  • Tonetare said:

    (POST ONE)
    Gay white males refraining from writing their racial preference against gay black males is not the answer. Speaking as a 24-year-old, middle-class, college-educated black male — who takes care of myself and my body as I’ve never smoked, drank, done drugs, hook ups, nor fuck-buddies — I rather see a comment like “no blacks” than go to all the trouble of making out a post to someone all for nothing and receive no reply, which is oftentimes the case. I can’t tell you how infuriating it is to submit numerous e-mails and get zero replies from white males who are also looking for dating/relationship as well, especially when my profile is more decent than 90% of the white male’s on the site; not to mention, I’m dressed more elegantly in my private pictures than 90% of the white dudes on the site. Appearances don’t seem to be an issue I have, as I’m constantly flirted with by all different types of women; mainly white women and black women as that’s what I’m mainly exposed to. Seems the problem is just with this gay white male inner circle, which unfortunately takes up about 90% of the gay community.
    Keeping us out of the know, however, will simply worsen this issue as it will waste our time even more. I rather go on the site and find out that none are a attracted to blacks, so I can go elsewhere and not waste my time dealing with white males and their antics.

    This problem could be solved pretty easily. Thing is nobody in the gay community really gives a crap because it’s happening to gay blacks. The gay community is geared towards the most privileged race/gender group in the country, white males. Gearing it towards a group that has it 100 times worse is not important to anyone. One small way this could be done by doing something as simple as creating a Website called “DudesForGayBlack.com”, a site intended for all who are interested in black males. Such a site would make my life light-years easier, but the gay black community is not a priority in the gay community. Despite the fact that, countless gay white males behaving racially snotty fashions is no secret, nothing is ever done to ameliorate this problem for gay blacks. Rather, the number one complaint out of the gay community is how anti-gay and homophobic attitudes are coming from the black community and the gay struggle is just as hard as the African American struggle.

    Guess where these complaints are coming from? None other than white males and they’re the complaints that get most of the attention in the gay community. How ironic that despite the gay community being wholly geared towards white males and them being the most privileged with most people to choose from — with like-minded preferences — most of the complaining within the gay community comes from gay white males. Not only that but complaints that are anti-black in nature: “homophobia and anti-gay attitudes are mainly coming from out of the black community. How dare blacks gripe about the five-century long era of socially acceptable anti-black persecution, which ended 35 years ago, when they can’t accept gays”; “we gays have it just as hard as blacks did, if not harder”, of course completely failing to realize they’re mixing apples and oranges as there are countless gay blacks who have it ten times harder than any gay white males and gay blacks that lived 35 years ago during the era of socially acceptable anti-black persecution; and absolutely any time white gays here a gay slur, “Don’t call me the f-word. That’s no different from me walking around saying the n-word.”

    This is why it irks me when countless whites whimper to “double standard” countless about the existence of programs geared towards blacks in some way, through use of “black” in the title, such as BET. In this simple Adam4Adam circumstance, we’re all realizing significant white privileges/black disadvantages that are springing up by this just being a general site. While it may not directly state “White” in the “Adam4Adam” title, that’s what a website, or any program for that matter, ultimately becomes when it’s not specifically geared towards blacks. As you can see, “Black” is needed as part of titles so the few black needles in a giant white haystack know where to meet for a sense of unity and equality. Years ago before Manhunt required payment, Adam4Adam was a predominately black website, but whites began to heavily populate it as the title wasn’t suggesting it was solely for blacks.

    We constantly hear comments from white America that “BlackPeopleMeet.com” is racist website of the str8 community, failing to realize how that is a site to equal the playing fields with privileged whites. Unlike blacks, whites have a massive selection from their own race to choose from, before having to turn to another race. Consequently, whites aren’t shooting themselves in the foot by adding comments like “whites only” or “no blacks” to their profiles, and do so quite often.

    I think there are a lot of gay white males like Jason who believe themselves most desired, which may affect who gay white males turn to as well. They see gay black men after gay white men, and while vice versa might be less common. To the him and the many gay white males like him, please understand that the white race brought the African American community into a country that’s 74% white (80% white if Hispanic whites are included) while we blacks only make up 13% of the country. And you can cut that 13% in half because the country is only about 6% black male. You can further cut that 6% in half for me gay black males like myself because not everyone is straight. Cut half of 6% in half down even more: due to the era of socially acceptable anti-black persecution era just 35 years ago at the hands of your race, which has left much of our community lower-class and struggling, it’s hard for middle-class blacks to find other blacks that are eligible and middle-class. This leaves middle-class black women and gay middle-class black men in the same boat at a TREMENDOUS disadvantage and extremely limited in finding romantic partners within our own race. This created societies in which black men feel they must be tough and live up to bad boy stereotypes to fight off the ills that poverty and racist whites bring on. This causes gay blacks to be on the down low and not fully embrace who they are, only looking for hook-ups as opposed to dedicated relationships. As an example, my preference is a non-smoker, no one on drugs, no one who drinks heavily, no one involved in hook ups, etc. Scrolling through the Milwaukee WI section of adam4adam, I RARELY IF EVER can find these traits in black men because most in my area are lower-class. Naturally a lot of them are pushed to smoking, doing drugs, etc., because they’re dealing with the racism, poverty, and homosexuality all at once. When poverty, race, and homosexuality are treated the way they are, a middle-class black male such as myself are FORCED to turn to white males. To boot, much of black community being converted to homophobic Christianity thanks to whites doesn’t help any.

    These facts are disregarded by arrogant white males, who put together OkCupid statistics to make themselves feel as though they are the most desired, failing to realize that their race has forced middle-class blacks into a position in which we must search for a decent non-racist needle in a redneck haystack.

  • Tonetare said:

    (POST WO)
    My apologies for my grammar errors above but I’m in a bit of hurry and writing all this as fast as possible. But to end this whole discussion, the answer is simple. Stop gearing the gay community towards the white race and start doing things that are going to ameliorate all the problems that gay blacks face. Start by creating websites and bringing attention to those websites, so as to accumulate more users “GayBlackMaleDating.com” and “DudesForGayBlacks.com” so as to avoid all these types of gay white males altogether would be great.

    Being a 24 year old gay black male myself, here are few realizations I have come to in figuring out what the problem is:

    1.) Having been flirted with by slews of pretty white women (not fat like str8 white males would have you believe), a lot of times that were complete strangers, I’m thinking this preference against blacks is something that’s only prevalent amongst white American men. I say white “American” men because, although I haven’t been outside of the country, I’ve heard feedback from very sources that white men from other countries didn’t have the racial preferences against blacks. In addition, my brother has dated a bunch hot white girls, two of which fought over him.

    2.) In case anyone hasn’t realized it, the amount of black women dating white men is relatively low as well. And all about the Internet, you can be previewed to white men (white American men anyway) referring to black women as “the least desired” and bashing them in this manner. It’s a constant if you ever visit “The Society & Cultures Group” section of Yahoo Answers.

    3.) In the gay community, the excuse for this preference is that “black men act stereotypically black, or ‘ghetto’”. Similarly, Str8 American white males use a similar excuse with black women that it’s “their attitude.” Black men, however, do very well for themselves in the str8 community, including myself.
    Being a middle-class black male with my head on my shoulders, I know firsthand that this excuse is nonsense. I am an African American in the Milwaukee WI area and I have yet to come across a white individual’s profile that is as decent and wholesome as mine. I very explicitly state “I don’t smoke and never have; don’t drink and never have; don’t do drugs and never have; don’t do hook-ups nor fuckbuddies and never have; 5’9; 134 and in shape / looking for non-smokers, non-heavy-drinkers, no one on any sort of drugs, no one with any sort of diseases etc.” I’m one of the few users dressed elegantly in my profile photo which I set to private. I rarely if ever get responses from the white males also looking for a relationship and white males make up most of the users in Wisconsin by a great deal.

    4.) Ohhh, but white males are more than interested if they’re out of my league lower, whether it be: the white male is older than me by 10 years or more; chubby; obese; smoker; or drug user, etc. Essentially, white males are very much on board if the black person is getting the worse end of the bargain. I see a lot of folks who claim this as “stereotype of the str8 community”. Having only learned of these antics white males pull in the recent years, I refuse to date white males out of my league lower in anyway. The only two people I’ve dated long-term were white and unsurprisingly, 9 years older than me, and that was when I was 20 and less savvy. The guys were both average looking and not hideous in any way, but thinking back, I remember a lot of things they told me that hinted at them not doing well within the white male community. Both of them acted like they were obsessed with blacks and that was directing their attraction to me, but I am extremely suspicious of that looking back. Bottomline, if a white guy is a 2 or 3 and a black guy is a 7 or above, he’ll be more than interested. I’ve been given the cold shoulder by a few white dudes who were merely 4 and 5. I’ve been told I am a solid 8.

    5.) One thing I’m confused about in regards to this preference against black men is whether it all has to do with skin color. I kid you not that I have been checked out repeatedly by white guys, that were in my league, in places outside of the gay venues, like college. However, that’s usually as far as it goes. Whenever I’ve tried to act on it, the white guys will play it off and try to act as if nothing ever happened. One guy played of engaging in a game of footsy with me for God’s sake. I think that may be an issue with bi-curiosity and coming to accept themselves more than anything but who really knows.

  • Tonetare said:

    Bottomline: Stop contributing to this white privileged/black disadavantaged gay community and start a process of equality by creating a “DudesForGayBlacks.com” and a bunch of similar websites for gay blacks, so we don’t have to be bothered with the populous redneck section of the gay white “American” male community and their antics. Our people are not the ones who chose to live in a godd@mn country with them. They’re people are the ones who chose to live in a country with us. If I had the choice of a significant amount of middle-class black men such as myself, white males are the last bunch of people I would be bothering with. However, life’s a b*tch and they make up like 90% of the friggin gay community

  • WTF said:

    @ Tonetare

    You make a lot good points, although I wonder why you suggest that someone else start a website for Black men and those whom are attracted to Black men? Why not start one yourself? Another question I would pose is, would that site be segregated by class? That seems to be an issue for you. I agree that there is a great schism between middle class and “lower” class Black males, however, wouldn’t excluding “lower” class men be creating the same problem, only by class?

    This is a very troublesome topic. So much has been said since this article was first printed, and it seems as if nothing has been resolved. I might be mistaken about that, as it seems that, at least among the Black men in this thread, there is some realization that we are not seen as equals within the LGBT community. That is perhaps the only positive coming out of this discourse.

    Like I have mentioned in earlier posts, we, the gay “community”, like many other communities, exist in a country that has far from resolved the many injustices laid upon people of color. We reflect the same classism, racism, sexism, and xenophobic ideals that make up much of what is known as the American standard.

    When LGBT people stop deluding ourselves that we are further evolved then heteros simply because we are the most trod upon, and realize that we have as much to work on in our own community, no progress will be made.

    America has never been about equality, but of privilege. Racial and class struggles have been a part of our history, and one that no one wants to plainly speak about.

    When it comes to sex, a whole other kettle of fish is opened. Too many secrets. Too many lies. Way too much ignorance and hypocrisy. All in the name of getting one’s jollies off.

    Tonetare, no one is forcing you to settle for anything. The question is whether you let yourself be attracted to whomever you want to be attracted to without having to see it as an either/or issue. I am a Afro-Caribbean man, in a relationship with an Irish man. We have been together long enough now to see beyond our color differences, and have our strengths and weaknesses. Our hidden fears and prejudices, and there may be more to come. My background is of the “lower” class, while his is more privileged than many in this country. Truth is when it comes down to it, we have found that our humanity is only thing we have in common.

    You may find someone that is of your caliber someday, but as I see it, we put limitations on our own lives if we our goal is to be accepted as equal to whites. One fallacy cannot be righted simply by dressing the part. I hope I’m not being offensive when I say that you will find very few white men that will see the light, especially among those who are considered the most desirable. Their commodity is youth and very little more, something every human loses eventually.

  • Tonetare said:

    @ WTF

    I agree and respect most of what you had to say but I also have some vehement objections to a few points you made at the beginning of your post. First and foremost before I get to my objections, may I ask you if this white man you’re dating is in your same league? For example, is he in your same age range or older than you by like 9 years? Is he a lot fatter or chubbier than you? Does he smoke, do drugs, or drink while you don’t? Do you, in any way, have an acute advantage over him?
    I don’t even know if it matters to ask that question, however, since you said this guy was Irish. Was he born in Europe?! If so, that goes hand in hand with what I said earlier, which is that white “American” males seem to be the only group of whites with a prevalence of racial hang ups.

    Now before I get to my objections, I just want to say that you made a lot of very respectable statements after your first few comments. As for my objections, however, you asked me why can’t I put such a website like “DudesForBlackGuys.com” together?! Err… why the hell can’t the professionals who developed Adam4Adam, Manhunt.net, Gay.com, OkCupid.com, etc., put it together?! Why if I want to be treated as an equal do I have to bring it about myself instead of rely on professional website developers like the gay white males sit back and do? Why can’t I, as a black individual, have that same privilege?! No! If “I” wish to have a soul mate, “I” better go through all the trouble of website development study, years of computer programming research, laboring for all the money necessary to meet expenses, etc., while gay white males sit back and receive all of this from a few simple clicks of their little white fingers. So if us gay blacks want a situation in which we have it half as good as gay whites as opposed to being completely screwed, we better figure out a way to create that situation our damn selves, right? We better not rely on the gay community in any sort of way, right? EXACTLY why I believe everything meant to further the gay community is intended for gay white males. Rather intended or unintended, all efforts at furthering the gay community only serve gay white males. It’s really not common sense: if a general website is created that’s not specifically directed towards blacks, it’s going to be immersed with white privileges and black disadvantages. This is evident in this very Adam4Adam problem. And if something needs to be put together as far as that goes in order to equate the black community to privileged whites, we blacks are on our own, huh? See, what I mean when I say complaints made for homosexuals are solely to further white gays. That’s essentially what you’ say by asking me why I can’t put together the site if it’s a necessity to the black gay community.

    I never said there was any schism between middle and lower-class blacks. I have an unending amount of sympathy for lower-class blacks and their situation in this pathetic country; however, my standards are as such that most lower-class blacks don’t fit into what I’m looking for because of the problems brought on by struggling lifestyles. Again, as an example, I’m looking for non-smokers; non-drinkers or at least non heavy drinkers; no one with any sort of sexual diseases or any diseases; no one on any sort of drugs; no one who has a promiscuous history or involved themselves in hook-ups or fuck-buddies, no one obese or chubby; etc. Hell, these traits are somewhat hard enough as it is to find within the privileged gay white male community. You can imagine that it’s rare if ever I find it amongst a group of people that not only deal with homophobia but racism, poverty in many cases, along with alienation from non-black members of the gay community of all places. Being brought up middle-class, blacks, like myself, come to uphold certain values and morals that we would like to find in our partners. Finding this is next to impossible because of a situation in which the white community has placed us in. As if black men only making up 6% of the country wasn’t bad enough, not all of them being gay, not all of them being top/bottom, and there are a disproportionate amount of lower-class and working-class blacks with cultures that don’t match mine as a middle-class African American male. As I said earlier, part of that culture is living up to a tough, manly stereotype to show one is able to handle a rough, lower-class lifestyle in an anti-black country. This has created “the down low” and secretive hook-ups while having a woman and pretending to be straight on the side. These are things, I’m constantly forced to dodge in my community, brought on by the racist garbage of whites. YET WHY DON’T I PUT TOGETHER THIS SITE IF I WANT TO BE TREATED HALF AS GOOD AS WHITES ARE TREATED?

    Again, however, I wholeheartedly agree with and respect everything else you said. I also understand your point of just because one is gay doesn’t mean they can’t be racist and like other communities we suffer from it, but countless white gays are causing us out to be a very hypocritical community. Quite frankly, given how much I’m flirted with by white women and not to mention the stereotypes, perhaps gays need to give the, as you say “further evolved then heteros simply because we are the most trod upon” talk a rest.

  • Richard the VII said:

    wow wow wow wow wow. So Tonetare you want someone else to create a black gay website. then you blame whites for all the poverty and lack of a middle class in the black community. and then you blame whites for turning the black community into a hyper-religious, homophobic society. you also blame whites for making black males into a “bad-boy” club adapting to fight the ills of this poverty.

    blame whitey is the main theme here. angry helpless blacks is another. maybe gay white males are attracted to power and strength and not helpless whining?

  • WTF said:

    @ Richard the VII

    I see your point about the website, but as far as your accusal toward Tonetare whining about the history of the designed segmentation of the races in this country. I would have to remind you that American history does not lie. The result of which has reverberates in ways that I believe most white people prefer not to believe or simply ignore.

    Certainly to deny that whites, not all whites, however many more than otherwise, have benefited from said design is foolish. Perhaps not you personally, but more likely your ancestors, distant or near, did participate in such strategies. This, of course, depends on what your background is, however if you have a European ancestry, the gain was there.

    I feel that whites, especially white men, feel a sense of guilt, again,some, not all, about the past to some extent, and it follows that the accusations of whining are almost like knee-jerk reflexes of that guilt. Personally, I won’t blame any white person, whether middle class or higher, of purposely setting out to hurt, ignore, learn to dislike black men directly. However I won’t ignore that these distortions exists. Nor will I deny that this goes beyond just black men, every person of color is both victim and perpetrator of a little racism. Examples:

    “NO DISRESPECT, BUT IM NOT INTERESTED IN PROSTITUTES, WHITE GUYS, OLD GUYS, FAGGOTS (DISRESPECT INTENDED THERE), OR FAT GUYS. JUST A PREFERENCE. PLEASE RESPECT THEM. I’M SMART, ATTRACTIVE, AND MASCULINE, PLEASE BE THE SAME.
    If you don’t have a cell, can’t talk, or have a whole bunch of demands, don’t hit me up. Kill yourself
    If your idea of a good time is only getting high or being drunk, we’re probably not a good match” black man’s ad on A4A.

    Don’t worry, I didn’t let him get away with it. I pointed out his contradictions and self-loathing comments. His reply was: “Did I hit you up.” I think a missed point, but in Palin vernacular “Whatcha gonna do?” wink..wink..smack…wink.

    “errybodyz..errybody..but really only tryna chill wit ma blacks or ma latino bruhs”. Yet another black man’s ad. Perhaps kinder, gentler…but still unnecessary.

    Then we have the Mandingo, sero-sorting (but that’s for another thread), seeking white male ad:

    “In shape, masculine, discreet, d/d free guy here. Into sucking, rimming, j/o, bottom, feet. Black guys a plus. NOT INTO UNCUT COCK, so please do not message me if you are uncut.
    If you reply, please have a place to play (I can’t host). HIV negative – tested Jan. ’11″ Who’s very specific, down to the very last drop.”

    The material girl ad:

    “Home
    School
    Work
    Car
    Live Alone
    PICS
    I have them u should too”

    That’s from a person of mixed heritage.

    The point is that there are as many varied ways to place an ad for what one prefers, and from what I remember, this is what this thread was about – Whether or not stating preference is equal to being discourteous.

    I suppose what I am getting out of this is a somber resolution that there are two types of people. People that are clueless and those who are not. Being socially aware is shunned in our country. We are taught to believe that we are all equal, having the same opportunity as any other (lies). Also, free to say what we want, regardless of how it affects anyone else. I think it’s a bastardization of the first amendment, which I consider the original lie, but “whatcha goin’ to do?”

    The gay community has the responsibility to itself to recognize our own shortfalls and try to educate each other, before we claim superiority over heteros, until then it’s all hogwash. Self-reflection is not a bad thing, I wish we were having honest forums about these troublesome problems, in which we can air these believes, false or not, then and only then will there really be unity between us.

  • Another Jeremy said:

    RICHARD VII
    “blame whitey is the main theme here. angry helpless blacks is another. maybe gay white males are attracted to power and strength and not helpless whining?”

    Tyler Clementi killed himself because of his own weakness. No one made him have sex with a person he barely knew, and that’s why he was so humiliated. I’m sure lots of straight people have had people play cruel sex-related jokes on them without taking such drastic action. And I’m sure some of them did. So what? To me, the “it gets better project” just perpetuates this image that straight people are the main cause of irresponsible homosexual behavior. It’s not the fault of bullies that gay white men frequent bars and hook-up sites like adam4adam. No one makes gay white men expose themselves to multiple sexual partners. If they’re just like everyone else, why don’t they just engage in monogamous relationships like straight people? On one hand it’s the fault of straight people for not letting them get married, but on the other they are rarely monogamous. It is not the fault of heterosexual intolerance that gay men account for the majority of all stds but only make up about 2% of the population. It’s not their fault that gay men have much higher instances of mental disorders because they are embarrassed by their lifestyles that are typically dominated by sex and drugs. Blame straight people is always the main theme in the gay community. Angry, misunderstood, helpless gays is always another. Maybe Clementi felt so isolated because straight people want to be friends with people who exude power and strength and not helpless whining?

  • Tonetare said:

    @ Richard The VII

    Wait a minute! I don’t get a date with you because I whined and didn’t show power and strength?! Ohhhhh noooooooo! I don’t get a date with Richard because I wshowed helplessness. AWWWWW MAN! Well Richard, maybe this will give you a change of heart. Maybe this will get you to give me a date: At your mother’s funeral service, visualize me spitting in her face; opening her dead mouth and pissing down her throat; and then turning around a shitting in it. THERE! HAS THAT CHANGED YOUR MIND ON GIVING ME A DATE?! MAYBE THAT WILL GET ME ON A DATE WITH YOU.

  • Richard the VII said:

    Wow this is so typical. Angry black men foaming at the mouth because they can’t land a white boy.

    And to WTF: what about white societies where there were no black people: like Sweden or Poland or Italy or Switzerland or Denmark or anywhere in Europe with the exception of maybe England and France. Did those European countries “gain” or benefit from the American policies toward blacks? Should white men there feel guilty?

  • Tonetare said:

    @ Richard the VII

    “Wow this is so typical. Angry black men foaming at the mouth because they can’t land a white boy.”

    Do you mean landing a gay white male that’s within our league and not out of our league inferior to us? Because that’s the issue. A lot of gay white males are under the impression that if they’re out of a black guy’s league inferior to them in some way, they’re entitled to him because of they’re skin color and that evens things out. I’m here trying to telling gay white males it doesn’t work that way and the gay white males who have tried to date me personally know that all too well. I’ve kicked numerous white gay men who thought it worked that way to the curb. The only two white guys I’ve dated were about 9 years older than me. I was only 20 at the time and they were like 29. Well, I strung them along the whole damn time and used them the whole damn time, without taking them very seriously, before I finally ended things. I’m afraid that’s how it will always go down, at least with me personally, if white gays are out of my league. I can’t speak for other gay black males but I’m writing this all out in a public forum in the hopes that they’ll take a hint. If gay black men don’t trust me as to my claims about gay white men possessing this kind of racially conceited mentality when it comes to dating blacks, well the comment you wrote above that I’ve quoted serves as a magnificent piece of evidence.

    lol! If I can’t prove that countless gay white males have a snotty, redneck superiority complex, well no one can prove it better than a white guy. Thank you Richard. LMFAO! And the thing is, the more this trait of gay males becomes exposed to gay black males, the less gay black men will be willing to date just any ole’ white guy who’s inferior to them. As far as I’ve been concerned, gay whites have only set themselves up to fail by believing that despite being out of my league, they were entitled to me just because of their skin color. Some guy I met off of Craigslist last month, before meeting me, stated and I quote: “Let’s just meet up as friends. There’s no way I could date a black guy. My parents would freak.” “Well, why?” I asked. “Well, please don’t take offense but there’s a type of black guy who doesn’t work, mooches off their welfare system, and lives in the hood. Not to mention their d*cks look like a fudge popsicle!” Anyways, I agree to meet him because I’m thinking he looks out of this world, but we meet up: this dude has a hunch in his back, is balding in parts of his head at 20 years old, looks goth with hair all dyed black and dirty clothing as he says he is poor, tells me he has OCD, etc. Midway through the date, as he was ordering a meal from a concession stand, rambling on with me standing behind him, I snuck off got in my car and went home. He called me off the hook and e-mailed me b*tching about why I ditched him and how could have been nicer.

    You see gay blacks, what they’ll do when their out of your league inferior to you in some way is bring up race because they think it evens things up. I can’t cite 3 other instances in which something like that happened, only the gay white males involved both had horrible looking Beetle Juice teeth. While everything else was fine but they’re teeth were just far too jacked up. There also the gay guys who seem to be decent, but are hiding a little secret that they don’t do well in their community so have turned to gay black men. There was one gay white male who was in my league who tried getting with me but his approach was all wrong. Rather than coming up to me and asking me out like an adult, he tried to make me jealous by flirting with any and every guy I looked at or was talking with at the LGBT center. It was funny always watching him blush when the person he was always trying to make me jealous with dissed him. Be aware that it’s possible for a person to be out of your league inferior not only based on physical appearance, but personality as well and that’s why I didn’t settle for this white guy either. Bottomline: be leery of gay white males and only date them when they’re in your league.

    To break it down my requirement list that I have for non-blacks and gay white males in particular. I have always refused to enter romantic relationships with a white men unless they’re fully in my league. That means, he’s within my age range 18 to 27 as I’m 24; he’s neither fat nor chubby as I’m 5’9 and 135 w/ a six pack; he’s never smoked as I’ve never smoked; he doesn’t drink heavily as I’ve never drank at all; he’s never done any drugs as I’ve never done drugs; he doesn’t have any sexual diseases as I don’t have any sexual diseases; he doesn’t have promiscuous history as I don’t do hook-ups or friends with benefits and look down on that kind of activity, etc. The instant you note a trace of them being out of your league, end the date and don’t bother with showing any manners about it.

    Richard, I’m actually very glad you made that statement because it hurts the gay white community that much more the more gay blacks become aware of it. If you don’t believe ME when I tell you gay white males possess racially superior mentalities in the dating field, believe the white guy above who just made the statement, folks. I think gay blacks need to become more exposed to the racist antics of whites so we can start building on a flourishing black gay community independent from the gay community in general that’s geared towards whites.

  • Tonetare said:

    Richard The VIII wrote: “And to WTF: what about white societies where there were no black people: like Sweden or Poland or Italy or Switzerland or Denmark or anywhere in Europe with the exception of maybe England and France. Did those European countries “gain” or benefit from the American policies toward blacks? Should white men there feel guilty?”

    My response: When it comes to majority black continents and majority white continents, the topic brought up by most whites is limited to how Africa is the poorest, most struggling continent in the world, while Europe is the wealthiest, most successful continent in the world. (Bear in mind, white Europeans and Americans are responsible for stripping Africa of all its finest resources, goods, humans, etc., systematically impoverishing it to build their own continents). This is actually a legitimate excuse as to why countries with the highest crime rates ought to be found predominately in Africa; however, those countries are predominately found in Europe (as shown here http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-highest-reported-crime-rates.html): a topic that is rarely if ever brought up by whites. Taking the trophy for 2nd highest crime rates in the world, behind the United States, is the United Kingdom. The UK is 92% white, 8% foreigner, and of the 8% that is foreigner, only 2.0% black (as shown here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom#cite_note-143 ). Out of the top ten countries with the highest crime rates, only one of those is an African country, and that’s South Africa at number 7. Despite there being more records, statistics, and attention for crimes in South Africa, such as here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_South_Africa for example, where Wikipedia dedicates a page to it, it is nothing compared to Europe’s United Kingdom. In fact, the following link, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html, reads “The United Kingdom is the violent crime capital of Europe and has one of the highest rates of violence in the world, worse even than America, according to new research” and “The total number of violent offences recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa.”). The country with the third highest crime rates is Germany. Germany is 91.5% German; 2.4% Turkish; and 6.1% other, largely consisting of Greeks, Italians, Polish, Russians, Serbo-Croatians, and Spanish (as stated here http://www.indexmundi.com/germany/demographics_profile.html). The following link, http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AulmaFzS2IwJ:german.about.com/od/culture/a/blackhistger.htm+300,000+to+500,000+Blacks+living+in+Germany+today.&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com, reads “While compared to other minorities, such as the 2 million Turks living in Germany, blacks are definitely a tiny minority among Germany’s 82 million people. While EU countries do not keep track of ethnicity, there are an estimated 300,000 to 500,000 Blacks living in Germany today.”
    The country with the 4th and 5th highest crime rates are France and Russia, respectively.
    It’s important to note that none of these countries are poverty-stricken exceptions, but very much developed countries in Europe (as shown here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developed_country ) — Enormous poverty levels are usually what’s behind high crime rates, but what excuse do so many well-off white countries have for containing the most crime?
    I suppose this explains the vicious racism against the few blacks that actually live in Europe (as shown here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwpO-nnFY9g AND HERE http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xe63l2_evacuation-de-familles-sans-logemen_news ). I suppose it also explains the five-century long era of socially acceptable anti-black persecution by countless generations of white Americans, all of whom have European ancestries. Also, if you think foreigners are the problem in Europe, I invite you to watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti2rqlUycM4

    (sources as to Africa doing just fine before Europeans colonized it: http://www.codewit.com/claretprobofpresentafrican.php AND http://www.exampleessays.com/viewpaper/58608.html )

    (related sources: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html AND http://bluecafe669.blogtownhall.com/default.aspx )

  • WTF said:

    @ Richard The VII

    “And to WTF: what about white societies where there were no black people: like Sweden or Poland or Italy or Switzerland or Denmark or anywhere in Europe with the exception of maybe England and France. Did those European countries “gain” or benefit from the American policies toward blacks? Should white men there feel guilty?”

    Are you really sure that the “societies” you talk of have NO black people living in them? That all depends on whom you mean by Black people? For example, are the Black people in your question, only African-American or from some other country?

    I can answer your question like this: There are blacks on just about every continent in the world. Sweden, Poland, Italy, Switzerland, and Denmark, are countries made up of different societies, which by definition are made up of individuals who may have any number of cultural, religious beliefs, economic class structure etc. If by “societies”, you mean this, then I would have to correct you in saying that there are no blacks in these societies, as there are blacks living in all the countries you mentioned. The only significant different would be percentages.

    Another important point would be that it would matter what you meant my “blacks”. For instance, in India, the Siddhis or the “Untouchable”, according to the now outlawed (yet still very alive) caste systems, usually have very dark skin, and are considered black. Although genetically, all sub-continental Indians are classified as Caucasian. The indigenous people of Australia, may be genetically Caucasian, but are nonetheless, considered black by most of Australian standard. Latino blacks, are, for the most part, of mixed blood, or multiracial, yet considered of African descent. In short your question lacks substance if only that it does not clarify what you mean by black.

    To answer the second part of your question. Yes, most of the northern hemisphere, which include the countries you mentioned, certainly did gain and benefit from the labors of the people that lived in all of the southern hemisphere. Unfortunately, as a result of these well known historic events, many of the ancestors of the southern hemisphere still suffer the ill effects of such events. By the way, those people in the southern hemisphere, include not only the indigenous people that were living there, but Africans transported from Africa, to replace those indigenous people that died at the hands of their conquerors.

    A good film for you to watch would be “The End of Poverty”, directed by Philippe Diaz. It describe how European nations, and even the USA, prospered from plummeting the people and land of the people of the southern hemisphere, and continue to do so today.

    Now as to whether white men should feel guilty about all of this. Well that is up to your conscience. Only remember, whatever choice you make, that this discussion, and the reality of many people perceptions of anyone of European descent today, is a wary and a haunted one. I can’t say that you should feel guilty, but understand that no culture or race is free from guilt.

  • WTF said:

    @ Richard the VII

    “Wow this is so typical. Angry black men foaming at the mouth because they can’t land a white boy.”

    Are you serious? Your response is so “typical” of the myth of white male superiority. You are digging a very deep hole for yourself and those that are defending the right to voice their racial preference for a sexual partner. Which I believe was the premise of this thread.

    I’ll keep this question simple. Why is it perfectly acceptable for the gay community to express anger over discriminatory acts, but not for black men to express anger over racism, and sexism, internalized or not, without being called “typically angry black men”? Come on. Your reaction is almost too obvious to point out.

    Let’s hear something original from you.

  • Tonetare said:

    @ WTF

    Amen to that! And I hope you don’t mind, but I just have to repeat one of your comments three times because of how extraordinary its point was:
    1.) “Why is it perfectly acceptable for the gay community to express anger over discriminatory acts, but not for black men to express anger over racism, and sexism, internalized or not, without being called “typically angry black men”? Come on. Your reaction is almost too obvious to point out.

    2.) Why is it perfectly acceptable for the gay community to express anger over discriminatory acts, but not for black men to express anger over racism, and sexism, internalized or not, without being called “typically angry black men”? Come on. Your reaction is almost too obvious to point out.

    3.) Why is it perfectly acceptable for the gay community to express anger over discriminatory acts, but not for black men to express anger over racism, and sexism, internalized or not, without being called “typically angry black men”? Come on. Your reaction is almost too obvious to point out.

    Actually. It was too good and deserves 4 repeats: 4.) Why is it perfectly acceptable for the gay community to express anger over discriminatory acts, but not for black men to express anger over racism, and sexism, internalized or not, without being called “typically angry black men”? Come on. Your reaction is almost too obvious to point out.

    And don’t get your hopes up about hearing something “original” from him. That would require brains.

  • Teesoup said:

    WOW… Thanks Tonetare and WTF! Tonetare, thanks for all your research. That moron didn’t make sense from the get-go! You both have broke it down for all of us. People like Richard the VII are complete bigots and shouldn’t even exist on this planet. I guess we as gay black men just need to take a backseat and let the white gay men/women scream discrimination towards the gay community, but all the same can be discrimative within the community towards black gay people. In the state of California, many gay white people blame the black gay and straight communities for prop 8 passing, preventing same-sex marriage. This even caused a bigger division in OUR community. I guess they gotta blame somebody!

    As I’ve said in one of my previous posts, before getting slammed by some racist white boy, there are many white boys out there who pretend they are not sexually attracted to black men when they are around their friends…tho’ this is common behavior in the gay community.

    Personally, I truly believed that this Richard person just wanted to ruffle our feathers…however, I’m glad he said what he said or none of us would’ve gotten the schooling that WTF and Tonetare have given us.

    People usually won’t change their way of thinking when it comes to discussions like this one, but I hope black men and womeb will continue to bring this to the attention of gay white people until they turn bright red and explode.

    this is far and beyond A4A…

  • WTF said:

    Ok..I’m happy that some people are beginning to get the underlying spin on all this. Yes, Teesoup, this goes way beyond A4A. Tonetare, thank you for acknowledging that I’m making some sense, at least to some.

    However, I want to point out that, although I agree with both of you, to a large extent, that there are some white men that do get it. Some that understand the assumed privilege they experience. I know white men think this way, and am fortunate enough to be partnered to one who does. However nad unfortunately, in this thread, we’ve heard largely heard from the defensive men that don’t understand that they play as much of a role in continuing this type of behavior as any overt racist would.

    Men like Richard the VII, whether intentionally or not, refuse to accept their role in the oppression of others. They are either incapable or refuse to see the bigger picture. That although the discussion started out as a question about mere decorum on a sex website, there is a level of racism from many, not just white men, that is insidiously palpable. It’s very much like white males whom couldn’t understand their oppression and repression of the women. It took a very long time to change their illusion of superiority.

    Racism, as many, black, white, Latino, Asian people and Native American, acknowledge, is inherit in American culture. It has been for much of its history. However to claim that racism is not tied to capitalism, would be to disregard the power that the rich have over most of the population. Now, it may sound as if I’m going off on an unrelated tangent, but hear me out here.

    Since historically in this country most of the wealth has been held by a minority of white men. The reality for many in this country as is currently in other industrially emerging countries in which capitalism is now a growing factor, the wealthy hold most of the power. It follows that the majority, which include poor white males, at least in America, have the disadvantage of being confined by such power.

    This power has shifted minimally ever since the industrial revolution. However out of the industrial revolution, slowly but surely, emerged the middle class, which has largely, or more correctly, publicly, been for large part made up of white Americans. People of color have for the most part been systematically held back from “progressing” into the middle class. Those whom were able to become entrepreneurs, and held on to some money, were still relegated to a small portion of what was considered the larger component of the superior class, and lived largely apart from mainstream middle class society.

    For the most part this system still exists today. Although limping and shrinking a bit, the middle class itself continues to be the lexicon of defeating poverty, of “moving on up”, therefore becoming the step-sister, if you will, of the rich, but assuming the vicissitude of superiority itself, even if false.

    Since we, the LGBT community are a part of the American culture, it would make sense that we would follow, intentionally or not, in its footsteps. So we reflect, as any minority does, a micro image of the macro mind set of society.

    The problem is, as I see it, that, somewhere along the line while we were in the process of liberating ourselves from the clutches of repression, and while constructing a foundation of unity amongst us, and deliverance from our oppressors, in addition to, if not debunking the false image of what America represented, we became ensnared in the very ideals that we were rebelling against. We have become increasingly complacent, with what little gain we’ve made. After all, all we wanted then and still have not fully reached, was to be considered as equal to straights.

    So now here we are. We have our bars and clubs, in which we could meet others like ourselves, and not be afraid of being arrested for doing so. We are, thankfully marginally accepted by our society. However the “we” in this equation, has been distilled to our historical patterns. The “we” does not include the diaspora of all of whom the “we” represents. It has indeed, as some have commented above, dissolved into a movement directed and chiefly made up of white men.

    This is very similar to what happened during the women’s liberation movement. In which, the majority of the voices heard were that of white middle class women. It wasn’t until women of color started to question the tide of the movement, and began addressing their own needs and expressing their point of view, did the women’s movement become inclusive and aware of women of color.

    I am not suggesting that we as gay men of color separate ourselves from what ever gay movement exists, for I don’t really see much of it. Additionally, many organizations, by need, have sprung to assess and address the needs of the minority within the minority. I instead suggest a reviewing of who we as whole represent; and whether or not we are to accept the norms that have kept us from true unity or continue to live complacently.

    Racism, classism, sexism are all symptoms of the syndrome of oppression. The big picture, and the big question is whether we go along with it or start from the beginning. Start afresh, and learn to move forward as a community of people who are still singularly oppressed and devoid of a voice at that table of equality.

    A4A is a very small part of the problem, and again, I believe symptomatic of the larger problem. We are missing the opportunity to hold the mirror up to America by our silence and by not acknowledging the work toward progress we have within own ranks.

    “We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools.”

    Martin Luther King, Jr.

  • Mike said:

    @Tonetare:

    I think your whole discourse about “inferior” and “superior” guys is a little absurd. I understand, since it’s supposedly coming from a black guy, that we’re all supposed to high-five you for sticking it to us or something, but from any honest analysis of your words, you sound really deluded.

    One of the points I’ve been trying to make all along is that, just because I don’t find someone attractive, it doesn’t mean I think I’m better than them, or should treat them poorly. I think the way you treat people is a much bigger problem than whatever issues you seem to have with individual white guys. Seriously, why do you even waste your time stringing along guys you don’t find attractive? Are you playing games to try to inflate your false illusion of superiority, or do you just really need to use them for the money?

  • Another Jeremy said:

    I’m glad you bravely chose to call out Tonetare without mentioning that the guy before him said that all these “angry black men” were foaming at the mouth because they can’t get white guys. You seem less interested in fairness than trying to shut down every black person who pipes up, whether or not you take the full context of their statements into consideration.

  • Patrick H said:

    If these sites were so concerned with letting people express their preferences, why not let people filter out who can see their profile?

    If someone doesn’t want to let guys over 40, for example, see their profile and contact them, they should have an option to hide their profile from people over 40. Problem solved for the most part. Someone could still pretend to be someone they’re not to get around filters, but It probably would reduce the awkward silences and nasty profile text I see.

  • GW said:

    @Patrick H I agree. They should add search filters that allows one to filter out profiles that don’t fit what they’re looking for.

  • Tonetare said:

    @ Mike

    You feel I’m “deluded” and the points I made to be “absurd”. Let’s weigh the evidence both of us have provided to support are positions to see who sounds absurd and who does not:

    ME:
    My position is that within the white “American” male community, there’s a prevalence of superior feelings over blacks in terms of romantic involvement; this belief involves white men feeling they deserve better than blacks, unless of course they’re getting a considerable positive out of the relationship that the black person is not, whether it’s being 9 years older or more, fatter, uglier, or whatever else have you.

    Now let’s look at the evidence I’ve used to support this position: (1.) countless personal experiences in terms of the types of white men who are and are into me and the types of white men who aren’t into me (not to mention, the types of white men on dating sites who state their preference for black men and the types of white men who state their preference against blacks) (2.) countless personal experiences I’ve had with white men who I’ve dated and talked to about dating (I even recounted one experience in particular that was imitative of many other white dates of mine, in which the dude had a bunch of anti-black things to say, suggesting whites were above blacks) (3.) slews of accounts from other black men online who cite, coincidentally enough I suppose, similar experiences to mine (4.) comparisons to what goes on in the str8 community in terms of how white men treat black women (If everything on the Web, such as “Culture & Society Groups” section of Yahoo Answers doesn’t serve as enough proof, just ask John Mayer to speak on the subject) (5.) TWO FREAKING COMMENTS LOADED WITH WHITE MALE ARROGANCE PUT RIGHT OUT IN FRONT OF YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE HERE FROM RICHARD THE VII HIMSELF.

    This is just SOME of the evidence I’ve provided in supporting my claims. Not to mention, blacks would know far better than whites about how blacks are treated by whites than a white person would. That’s just commonsense.

    AND THEN THERE’S YOU:
    As you’re labeling my position as “absurd”, your position is that it’s ridiculous to think there’s any such a prevalence of arrogance and feelings of superiority within the white male community when it comes to dating blacks, but rather just harmless displays of “preference”. Here’s what you’ve used in support that position: (1.) “I understand, since it’s [Tonetare's position] supposedly coming from a black guy, that we’re all supposed to high-five you for sticking it to us or something, but from any honest analysis of your words, you sound really deluded.” (2.)”I think the way you treat people is a much bigger problem than whatever issues you seem to have with individual white guys. Seriously, why do you even waste your time stringing along guys you don’t find attractive? Are you playing games to try to inflate your false illusion of superiority, or do you just really need to use them for the money?”

    Really, who sounds more absurd between the two of us? The one supporting his claims with logical, relevant arguments and information or the one providing irrelevant ad-hominems about “high-fiving blacks” and criticisms about how I treated a couple of white dates of mine, who were 9 and 10 years older than me and who acted obsessed with blacks while also sending subtle signals that they didn’t do so hot in dating their fellow whites. And had you, as Jeremy so beautifully ponted out, bothered to look at the full extent of my text and taken the full picture into consideration instead of craftily ignoring both the major points I made in connection to that post and the white male arrogance shown by Richard The VII, you would know that.

  • Tonetare said:

    @ Mike

    By the way, here’s a little break down of everything you chose to overlook in responding to my post:

    Themes of my 1st, 2nd, 3rd post: doesn’t matter what the preference is of gay white men. It’s irrelevant. Rather intentionally or unintentionally, America’s gay community is such that gay white males are privileged while gay black men are disadvantaged. And this little fact doesn’t seem to be a secret as I’m finding sites with this topic popping up frequently on the Internet; not to mention, slews have commented on this very article. While there are relatively simple solutions to at least begin a process of leveling the playing fields — such as Patrick H’s suggestion of a filter that hides your profile from those you’re not interested in, so as not to waste anyone’s time or offend them, or my suggestion of a site geared towards black preferences — nothing is actually done because it’s not burdening the largest racial/gender group within the gay community; the racial/gender group who has the most within their own race to choose from; the racial/gender group who’s complaints are put at the forefront, such as the complaint that prop 8 and most homophobia is thanks to the black community, etc. I also pointed out that white males have no reason to feel a sense of racial arrogance from gay black men showing interest in them when you consider our situation of living in a country that’s 74% white (80% white if Hispanic whites are included) while only 13% black; 6% black male; not all black men being gay; the numbers of lower-class and middle-class within the black community, while white society has made it so that whites are light-years more visible in the middle-class than blacks; etc.

    Theme of my 4th post: after addressing the very legitimate points that WTF made in his post (and continues to make as I just adored reading his last enlightening, very thought-provoking passage), I also argued that random gay black men being forced to rely on nobody but themselves (which is a number significantly less than 6% of the country by the way) in putting their own websites and resources together in order to make their situation half as good as gay white men is just another example of the gay community being geared towards gay white males, or at least geared against gay black men.

    Theme of my 5th post: this diss was in response to Richard The VII’s post to my first 3 posts. He wrote “blame whitey is the main theme here. angry helpless blacks is another. maybe gay white males are attracted to power and strength and not helpless whining?” In response, I showed him just how much I actually care about attracting him with those types of characteristics, which apparently arouse him.

    Theme of my 6th post: This was in response to Richard’s the VII’s racially superior and stuck-up comment: “Wow this is so typical. Angry black men foaming at the mouth because they can’t land a white boy.” As stated earlier, this comment actually reinforced my suspicion which is a prevelance of white American men believing they’re above black people, at least in terms of romantic involvement with them.

  • Tonetare said:

    Gosh darn it! Another epic comment that deserves to be repeated a couple of times. Teesoup if you don’t mind:

    I guess we as gay black men just need to take a backseat and let the white gay men/women scream discrimination towards the gay community, but all the same can be discrimative within the community towards black gay people. In the state of California, many gay white people blame the black gay and straight communities for prop 8 passing, preventing same-sex marriage. This even caused a bigger division in OUR community. I guess they gotta blame somebody!

    I guess we as gay black men just need to take a backseat and let the white gay men/women scream discrimination towards the gay community, but all the same can be discrimative within the community towards black gay people. In the state of California, many gay white people blame the black gay and straight communities for prop 8 passing, preventing same-sex marriage. This even caused a bigger division in OUR community. I guess they gotta blame somebody!

    —————
    I especially liked this comment from Teesoup because of Richard The VII’s comment of: “blame whitey is the main theme here. angry helpless blacks is another. maybe gay white males are attracted to power and strength and not helpless whining” Guess blaming and getting to be unhappy with a circumstance is a feeling that only white males are allowed to show, huh Richard The VII? Ah well! Doesn’t seem as if this user is to return. I think he sees far to much convincing argument brought forth against him to reply.

  • Wade from 11th and M said:

    I made a comment on the other related thread here. Nobody seems to want to address it.

    I don’t consider myself superior to anyone else. I also am a white male who is attracted to other white males. Somebody postulated that due to racism in the white community, white males have been led to believe that they are more attractive than minority males. This was directed through images of positive reinforcement and cultural taboos throughout their life.

    But wouldn’t that also work for the whole straight/gay dynamic? As a male I was led to believe through images of positive reinforcement and cultural taboos that I was supposed to be attracted to females. Yet I am not.

    The point I’m trying to make is that why people are attracted to certain people goes much deeper than what the majority of society “leads” you to believe. You can be taught that white people are attractive and still fall in love with an Asian. You can be taught you are supposed to be attracted to women and still fall in love with another man.

    Anyone care to discuss?

  • Another Jeremy said:

    @ Wade from 11th and M

    Do you realize you making the same crucial error that Nom, Sqt and Mike all made in their reasoning on this same topic? You refused to discuss the issue on the terms laid out in the titles. The name of the blogs are not “Why are White Gay Men not Attracted to Each and Every Person of a Racial Minority They have Ever Met.” This discussion is about defining people as undesirable because they are part of group, instead of judging them on their own merit. You did not say (on the other blog) that you “preferred” white guys, but rather that it was literally impossible for you to even get aroused at the site of anyone who is not white.

    Wade

    “I only sleep with other white guys. I don’t know why this is. Even when it comes to porn, I only get aroused by images of white men. This is not a conscious thing with me. I can’t help what turns me on. But that doesn’t make me a bad person, does it? I have no control of what goes on “down there” so please don’t blame me for it.
    Just like women don’t turn me on, non-white guys don’t turn me on. It’s not a choice for me.”

    You said that your “”preference” for white men was much like your “preference” for men over women. You said in each case it was not a choice for you. This is a false comparison. Sexuality is not learned and being attracted to specific features over others (aside from general health) is learned. If racial preferences were innate, there wouldn’t even be various “races.” And lest we forget to point out the pink elephant in the room. WE ARE GAY! We are not reproducing, so these implications about natural selection are ridiculous!

    You are attracted to certain individuals who happen to be white because of specific traits THEY have. You do not start drooling uncontrollably at the site of all white men and pounce on them with or without their consent. You see them, and then you evaluate their looks/personalities. So why not with any other race? There is no less variety of features among the other groups than there is among white men and yet it seems you have come to the conclusion that their traits are just not as good as white features. There are slender, muscular, fat, and hung men with/without symmetrical facial features of all ethnicities, so why is it that the common denominator with respect to your attraction is racial instead of any other number of characteristics if not a decision that other ethnicities are inferior? Certainly there are white men you do not find attractive, yet you did not come to any conclusion about all white men. You tried to equate your fetishization of certain traits with your biological sexual orientation, and that’s bogus.

    I certainly agree that there are all sorts of reasons to not be attracted to a PERSON but not a GROUP OF PEOPLE. If these attractions go deeper than what he have been led to believe, then why are you even defining what you desire sexually along racial lines?

  • Wade from 11th and M said:

    Can anyone prove that specific features of attractiveness are NOT learned? How is that even possible to prove/disprove?

    Let’s come up with a scenario. Is it not conceivable that a kid in Peru could grow up to fall in love with someone in Mongolia? Yet nowhere in Peruvian society (of which I am aware) is it demonstrated that people with Mongolian features are highly desirable, to the detriment of others. Yet this is conceivable and possible. Poles could fall in love with Aborigines. Indians in love with Irish.

    That’s the parallel claim many of you make here about white beauty being prevalent in American society. That we are all brain-washed by society to aspire to the white male ideal. Yet we know that too many exceptions to this rule are apparent.

  • Puck said:

    I’m a bisexual white male, and I have partners both female and male at about a 40/60 ratio. So go figure my scenario out:

    I tend to date non-white women. Indian, Latina, Black, Korean, Filipina and some white – they are all fine and sexy and stimulating, and I’ve enjoyed my friendships and sex with all of them equally. Sex with women is very tender and passionate.

    But only white dudes turn me on. I’m very open minded (obviously), but I only get turned on by white men. Rugged, athletic, hairy, white jocks open up another avenue of my sexuality. It’s another side of me that I hid for many years until moving to the DC area, when I decided to explore this side of my nature. Man-sex to me is violent, dirty and fetishic. Purely carnal. I kind of go on auto-pilot.

    So how can this be? I’m obviously not racist, since I find all women of all races equally attractive. I find all these arguments fascinating to read, but everyone here is focusing on strictly homosexual terms.

    Think I’ll repeat my post in the other discussion.

  • Tonetare said:

    I believe it’s possible that skin color can play a factor in why one is attracted to another just as eye color can play a factor, nose size/shape can play a factor, hair mass can play a factor, how someone perceives a person based upon societal influences and stereotypes can play a factor (like the situation I spoke of above in which a white date of mine stated he “didn’t want to date a black man because of how they’re ghetto and on welfare”, then called me off the hook when I ditched him during our date because I wasn’t physically attracted to him), having a penis can play a factor, etc. Attraction can be based on so many, many things and everyone is allowed to be attracted to whomever they want for whatever reason.

    I think the issue is why must blacks be put into situations in which we and everyone around constantly hears about the racial preferences of white males? I just rather not come across these gay white males at all and have completely separate establishments as them, so I never have to deal with or hear about them and their racial preferences. That’s where the issue lies. The fact that blacks must be surrounded by these types of gay white males is very insulting. I have no issue with someone having a racial preference. I do, however, when I must be paraded with their racial preferences. I take issue to whites who showcase their racial preferences against blacks, parading it in our faces, trying to call our attention to it. Why must we as gay blacks, who already have enough on our plate, be put situations in which we must constantly deal with them and their racial preferences?

    Wade, if what you’re claiming is true that racial preference is akin to sexual preference, it’s all the more reason that the gay community should be creating programs and establishments, allowing gay blacks to be completely separated from the gay white males like you, so we’re not having to be bothered with you and your racial preferences. That means creating separate dating websites, bars, community centers, etc., geared towards certain racial preferences, so people outside of the racial preference of others never have to be bothered with them. The very reason for gay-oriented dating websites, bars, and community centers is so that gay men don’t have to constantly run into other men who are not physically into them. The very intention of gay bars and dating websites is so that gay men wouldn’t have to be stuck using their gay-dar, or worse, dealing with homophobia. The gay community felt it didn’t like the idea of sharing programs with str8 people and the possibility of having to constantly with such things as profiles that read “No men!”, “Not into dudes!”, “Not into penis! Deal with it”; the possibility of straight men acting like jerks towards gay men because they’re not into them; or the possibility of wasting one’s time hitting up a str8 guy who hasn’t made it clear he’s not into gay men, etc. The gay community didn’t like the possibility of that so they made separate establishments and programs so that they wouldn’t have to deal with that inconvenience; HOWEVER, the only folks who benefited off that were gay whites as they’re the only ones who aren’t dealing with such an inconvenience. In the gay community, because blacks are forced to share the same environments as the gay white males with the racial preferences, we must constantly use our black-dar or be flooded gay white males parading their racial preferences in our faces and, in many cases, deal with just plain hostile, racist treatment when sexual preference is irrelevant.

    Completely separate establishments is the only answer. Because I not only don’t want to hear about the racial preferences of gay white males but I neither want the possibility of coming across them in any way. It all just serves as hindrance — and an obnoxious one at that — when I’m on the search for Mr. Right. The playing fields for black gays and white gays are unequal enough as it is with gay white males making up most of the gay community, not having to deal with any serious racism, etc. The very least the gay community could do is make it so that gay blacks never have to hear about or in any way deal with the racial preferences of gay white males. Again, because it’s not inconveniencing the white gay male majority, I don’t anticipate anything ever being done about it; rather, I only anticipate the problem being exposed and discussed.

    By the way, I found an interesting website related to this topic, among the very first search results, when I googled “Gay whites”: http://www.youth-suicide.com/gay-bisexual/racism-gay-lesbian/1-white-racism-america.htm#african-american. I’d like to see this website come up as one of the first search results when “Gay” is googled.

  • Another Jeremy said:

    @ Wade

    I feel like your posts are making less and less sense.

  • Tonetare said:

    And when I say programs, enabling separation from the gay white males with racial preferences, I am specifically talking about gay white males like Wade in particular: Types of gay white males who not only have racial preferences but go out of their way to let their preferences be known to those who don’t fall into their race of preference, when it’s unnecessary. As much as you two like advertising how much you’re only attracted to whites and rewriting posts until non-whites see it, we really don’t give a damn about you and your racial preferences. If you must go around advertising it, why not simply advertise it to gay white males? They’re the only people who can fulfill your needs. We non-whites don’t care to hear about you and your racial preferences, especially when we haven’t asked or approached you in any sort of luftful way. It seves no purpose than a form of racial cattiness. Jeremy’s quote of what you said is exactly what I’m talking about.

    “I only sleep with other white guys. I don’t know why this is. Even when it comes to porn, I only get aroused by images of white men. This is not a conscious thing with me. I can’t help what turns me on. But that doesn’t make me a bad person, does it? I have no control of what goes on “down there” so please don’t blame me for it.
    Just like women don’t turn me on, non-white guys don’t turn me on. It’s not a choice for me.”

    Yea! The difference is str8 women don’t have to share the same damn dating Website as your behind and read crap like “I only get aroused by whites! WHITES ONLY!” I don’t know about anyone else but I’m all for not ever coming across people like this and racial preference segregation within the gay community.

  • Wade from 11th and M said:

    Well, I’m not trying to make less sense, so please step back. I’m not a racist and I resent that term being applied to me. I don’t believe in racial superiority, with one race over another, which is how racism is truly defined.

    In the privacy of my bedroom I don’t entertain women, yet I don’t have women screaming at me that I’m sexist. What makes this different?

  • Another Jeremy said:

    Because your sexuality is biological and racism is not.  This has been stated several times already.

    Prejudice

    1.
    a. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
    b. A preconceived preference or idea.

    What would you call a prejudice based on race if not racism?

  • WTF said:

    It’s particularly interesting that this discussion has gone from decency, if I may use the term regarding virtual behavior on a internet sex site, to a discussion about racism and sexism overall.

    This is exactly the point of the article. It is offensive to read a profile that specifically excludes a group of people based on who they are. Whether or not the post was made by a white person or a person of color. They are both equally disturbing and loathsome. To defend this type of behavior anywhere, is simply to become a part of the problem.

    If those of here that are responding defensively, or in any way claiming that it is a harmless act, is plainly incapable of seeing the big picture. I am not saying that black men, who post “no whites” in their posts are less culpable, that would clearly be partial. However to remain silent, or defend behaviors that are indistinguishable is to be completely guilty of its support.

    We all have the responsibility to change this type of deportment. It’s vile, and encourages it’s sustenance. No one should hide behind their sexual preference as a right to harm others. It’s simply wrong. Until we all see that words are just as dangerous as the actions behind them, intentional or not, we are all guilty of racism and sexism.

  • OKGeek said:

    Are you suggesting that these people just START being attracted to black men? Do you think that they should be forced to do so?

    Black is more than a skin tone, for the most part. There are different facial features as well. What if they just don’t care for it, like you may not like large noses or beards?

  • WTF said:

    @OKGeek

    Not sure at whom your directing your question to, however as I mentioned earlier, the discussion started out with regards to sex website language, explicitly, blunting excluding people by race is appropriate, and how, intentionally or not, it offends people. No one is saying that anyone should be forced to “lay down”, with anyone who they don’t find attractive. That rarely happens anyway, unless one is doing it for money.

    Again, the original article, which, if you haven’t read, is about how the author, who I believe is a white man, noticed how difficult it might be to read repeatedly that one’s race, in this case African-American, is explicitly excluded as a preference in some profile.

    There have been an array of claims, both pro and con, such preference. The pros and the cons have, not surprisingly, been divided down along racial lines. Very much like the history of America. Moreover, the discussion has turned to what I consider an interesting display of how out of touch the gay community is with its own racial biases. It remains a mystery to many that racism in the gay community exists.

    However, the article is not specifically about overt racism, but about how the undercurrent of racism plays out through our (gays) sexual preferences, and the ability to be “brutally honest”, two words and two subjects that believe are one and the same, by which I mean, no one has to be brutal to be honest, and that having to state the desired race for one’s sexual partner is really necessary. Personally, I tend to think not, but that’s just my opinion, and how I handle myself on line. I’ve read these preferences from both of these races, not just white gay males, and have called those folks as well.

  • Tonetare said:

    After doing some research, I’m realizing that my situation may be unique to the area in which I live. I live in Milwaukee WI. And having done some research, I’ve learned that the midwest is the most racially segregated area in the entire country with Milwaukee WI being the most racially segregated; not to mention, the Milwaukee areas stands out for it’s lack of black suburbanization and black middle-class. (As is shown here http://racerelations.about.com/b/2011/04/04/do-you-live-in-one-of-americas-most-segregated-cities.htm ). So perhaps while some of the observations I made above are true, are a bit exaggerated as far as other areas of the country go.

    All I can say is I strongly discourage gay African Americans from moving to the midwest if gay and I’m probably not helping myself any by saying that. I am a gay African American male; 24 years of age; year and a half away from earning my second college degree; into taking care of myself as I’ve always been fit (5’9 and 139 w/ a six pack), pearly white teeth, never drank nor smoke, never done drugs, never had any diseases, never done hook-ups nor friends with benefits as I have have strong values (no offense, but this is more than I can say for most str8 white males I come across here at college); born and raised middle-class in all-white suburbs. I wouldn’t wish life in Wisconsin on any African American middle-class person.

    While I believe racism an African American receives is significantly exacerbated by being lower-class and adopting trends of lower-class blacks, there’s certainly no wonderful romantic life here in Wisconsin for gay African Americans who work their way out of lower-class lifestyles. From the way I see it, you basically have two choices if you’re African American and living in Wisconsin: upside of being around African Americans but stuck in struggling, lower-class, sketchy areas or upside of being in middle-class areas but vastly outnumbered by whites.

    As I’ve already stated on this page, there are many white privileges/black disadvantages that come with being vastly outnumbered by another race and the odd man out everywhere you go: For example, shyness and standing out in highschool is a very bad mix and makes for a very visible target for bullies. Because of the condition of most MPS schools, my parents had no choice but to send me to suburban schools and I was shy growing up considering the amount of attention I received and everyone looked different in skin tone. I knew a lot of white kids who were just as shy as me, if not more shy, growing up and I for the life of me didn’t understand why I had to defend myself a lot more so than they did. Rarely if ever did other shy white kids have to be on the defense as much as I did, even if they were obese. I realized being shy and standing out is a bad combo. Looking back as an adult, I now realize I wasn’t as free to flaws as other white students and am still not considering the college I attend. For example, because the greater degree of attention that’s on me than just another white student, I’m not as free to a bad hair day or doing something silly and stupid as the rest of the white students, as it will attract that much more negative, judgmental attention.

    And please do not even get me started on Milwaukee’s gay community (really Wisconsin gay community because it’s wall-to-wall whites for the most part outside of the Milwaukee in Wisconsin). If there are black parents who suspect their kids of being gay, I strongly discourage them from raising kids here even if middle-class. Suicidal thoughts will constantly be on their mind. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve made out posts with my stats on Craigslist in search of an LTR and got zero responses, then when I changed “African American” to “White”, how I instantly became a prize to Wisconsin’s gay community, receiving a bunch of e-mails. (Internet dating is pivotal in the gay community even for whites). Placed all the same exact stats and information: how I have my degree, never drank nor smoked nor done drugs, fit, so on and so forth. Only difference was that I changed my color, and my luck changed.

    As for turning to my own race of men, again, finding middle-class black men is hard enough as it is, without also trying to ferret out gay middle-class black men looking for LTRs. Most black males in my neck of the woods are only into secretive down low hook-ups and understandably so: Most blacks in the Milwaukee area are lower-class and the tough lower-class lifestyle that African Americans must lead doesn’t allow for gay black men to completely embrace their homosexuality. Being tough and able to survive is pivotal for lower-class African Americans. They’re not only dealing with racism and homophobia, but poverty as well and thus have lot’s of issues. Long story short, I’m a middle-class gay black male with a good head on my shoulders who has very few options in terms of dating here in Milwaukee WI. I’m forced to search through a bunch of gay white males with racial hang ups.

    Something I never mentioned in my previous post is: how slews of white men have stared into my eyes daily (some even going so far as playing footsy with me) and have done all sorts of stuff that implies interests at college, then when I was direct about it, they acted like they never did any such a thing and completely changed their tune. They’re very into wasting time and sending mixed messages which exacerbates the lives of gay black men even more. It goes hand in hand with the fact that most of the white men I’ve gone out on dates with (I’ve only been able to go on dates with white men by the way) all had something racially offensive to say. It’s almost as if they’re conflicted in some way because of skin color, so perhaps my suggestion of a “DudesForBlacks” dating site wouldn’t work in my neck of the woods. I mean, before I even met the last guy I went out on a date with, he told me on the phone, “Can we just meet as friends? My parents would freak if I brought home a black guy.” “Why?” I asked. “Well please don’t take offense but most blacks are lazy and on welfare. You guys also have d*cks that look like fudge popcicles.” When we actually met, he wanted more but looked like a bum, had a hunch, and he had a small bald spot at only 20 years of age. I ended up sneaking off in the middle of our date while he had his back turned to me, rambling on, as he was out of my league. (I’ve learned that a lot of white males are willing to get involved with African Americans with no hesitations whatsoever if you’re out of their league better than in some way, whether you’re 9 years younger than them, you’re skinny while they’re fat, you don’t smoke while they do, etc. I refuse to get the short end of the stick with a white male which unfortunately has meant I get no one). He called me off the hook, wondering why I bailed on him and had the nerve to say “I could have been nicer”.

    Anyways, many of the white men I’ve gone out on dates with have said something similar to him in terms of black people. It explains why all of these white college men will send signals but then act differently once I approach them directly. Wasting my time with conflicted white men with racial hang ups, who like sending signals has been pretty much the story of my life. It really sucks only having only white males to choose from. I hate that most middle-class black people live in Atlanta. I’ve asked my dad if I can attend college in Atlanta and he said he doesn’t have the energy and money for all that. I don’t get my second degree until December of next year, so I’m going to have to put up with zero romantic life until then. At that point, I will be 26 and age is a big issue in the gay community as well. All that said, not everyone is gay and I can’t speak for the str8 black male experience here in Milwaukee WI. I can say that, while I have had a great deal of white girls flirt me up and look at me adoringly here at college and other venues, I don’t know what antics are played once you get involved with them. But let’s just say I’m doing a lot better for myself than my brother, who smokes, has had a baby when he wasn’t ready with a white girl who smokes, and never went to college, so I’m thinking the str8 black experience isn’t all that much better.

  • Lee Beach said:

    hi there.. good blog, interesting posts, nice layout, good content management. i love this blog The New Gay » Cynical and Southern: I’d hate to be Black and on Adam4Adam. exactly what plug ins do you use for your blog. do you use wordpress blogs or some thing else. i would want to know. i have a blog which doesn’t appear fine at all and its a pain to work with it. do you think you’re on facebook or twitter? i would like to get to know you and also learn from you. Please reply.

  • Chief said:

    I just stumbled upon this website tonight for the first time. I’ve spent a good deal of time reading all of these comments tonight and I must say this is really a great discussion. I myself am a bi-racial male of African-American and Caucasian descent. I recently relocated from the Northeast to the South and have felt bombarded and disturbed by all of the “No blacks, sorry just a preference”, “white or latin only” while checking out my new area’s online scene. It has gotten to the point that I’ve become kind of disgusted by the majority of the men here. Most men here (often including the black) are looking for white or latin men “ONLY”… Most are also looking for str8(?) men but that’s another (idiotic, self-loathing) topic in itself.

    Now, I am definitely not a stranger to racism (at all). It’s definitely a much colder world when your skin is not pinkish BUT I really wasn’t aware of how things were here in this southern state in regards to racism and gay men. Seemingly every other post on craigslist m4m is anti-black man. Blatant disregard for anyone’s feelings, granted I’m not missing out on much but still.. It’s just rude as hell. There are tactful ways to get what you want from life without hurting others. Which leads me to believe that these melanin-impared posts are on *some* level aimed at hurting (br)others. Another small way to force “superiority” down someone else’s throat.

    I’ve had a life long issue where most new people I’ve met needed to know my racial identity. Needed to place me in a box of some sort with those all important “What are you?”, “What’s your nationality?” questions. Or “Are you this, are you that?” I think that cultivated an interest in different cultures very early on. Made me much more open-minded. I realized that I’m not like these people and race is not as much of an issue. I have been attracted to people of every race I have ever seen. This is definitely
    not the norm where I am from. (I will admit I am not really attracted to blondes but that’s a hair color not a race.)

    Based on physicality alone I feel like sex-appeal has no color. If you’re hot you’re hot! And speaking on physical attributes when I see someone I like I’m more interested in height or hands or shoulders. How you walk, your presence or a ruggedly handsome smile. Not what race you just so happen to be. I feel bad for people who limit themselves racially whether in social situations or sexual. There’s a whole wide world out there, you’re missing out! I mean, by all means if vanilla is your thing well…I guess grab a spoon and dig in! But there’s A LOT more to life than plain ole vanilla. Keep your vanilla. I’m going to sample some caramel, maybe butter pecan.

    Point is: I completely agree with the original article and have always thought when reading these “whites only” posts, ‘God forbid you just ignore an email from someone you’re not interested in or simply say you’re not interested instead of insulting an entire race (based on race alone)’. I also agree with previous comments that state these rude-ass people would NOT be so forward and rude in real world scenarios. Cowards! You know people get ballsy behind their keyboards. With that said, sleep with who you want, no need to be rude about it though! I’ve decided to skip the internet route altogether and just meet people in the real world. If I don’t meet them HERE maybe I will in some other foreign, sexy part of the world. ;)

    Much respect to everyone who contributed intelligently to the discussion throughout the year. Definitely a good read.

    Chief

  • Mr. Smith said:

    As a Black Man I must tell you from my prospective and many other black gay men on Adam 4 Adam,”Please don’t feel sorry for me/us”. I and many other black men can care less, I hate going on there and being bombarded by white guys that in there profile say no black guys but is constantly on my page.So there is no reason to hate being black on Adam 4 Adam. Most of the so called “preferences” are mainstream white American value,we are use to it. The problem is that most white guys think that black men are wanting them and it most certainly is not the case. I only feel sorry for the gay black guy that likes white men,which is very low on there and any gay oriented date/sex site. As for low class there are low class whites as well, not all black people are poor and uneducated,just like not all whites are rich and smart. So again don’t feel bad for any black gay man on Adam 4 Adam or any gay site because 95% percent or so don’t want white guys either,”just a preference”.

  • JJ said:

    And people wonder why racism is still going strong?!?!

    Most white guys DO NOT think black guys want them! I think it’s the other way around.

    If you aren’t attracted to someone because of their skin color then don’t fucking respond to their mail. YOu don’t have to say “NO WHITES”, “NO ASIANS”, etc. I’m guessing most of these people are not very educated.

    I have no issue with race and have had the meanest responses from black men…and they wonder why they’re still dealing with racism. Black people are some of the most racist people in the US.

  • Tonetare said:

    @ JJ

    Hold on! Hold on! Couple of questions:

    What’s your age and the ages of black men you’ve been trying to get with?

    What’s your body type? That is, how tall and how heavy specifically? And what is the body type of all the black men you’ve been trying to get with?

    Do you smoke or do any drugs?

    Do you have any diseases whatsoever?

    How successful have you been in getting dates with white males in your own racial community?

    What are you on a scale of 1 to 10?

    I think all the above needs to be answered before any gay white male speaking of this kind of treatment from gay black men gets any sympathy.

    Chances are the black males who rejected you realized you were the typical white community reject that always comes crawling to the black community as some kind of last resort, and they were wise enough to know exactly what you were pulling. Knew what you were pulling and didn’t have anything to do with it. Now that I’m keen on this behavior, I’m quick to reject them as well if they aren’t in my league. I hate to make generalizations but based upon the many, many, many gay white males I’ve come across, I’ve learned that they can’t be trusted when it comes to interracial relationships at least with black males. It’s always some messed up situation where the black male gets the short end of the stick if he is to get involved in an LTR with them. If they are in your league, it’s usually that they want that “black guy d*ck” hook-up experience which I’ve always disallowed it.

    I think we as gay black men need to date within our race and not date out, at least with white men. It’s simply too risky dealing them. And besides that, we have soooooo much variety within our race. The African American community is

    —————
    @ Chief & Mr. Smith

    Excellent postings from intelligent-sounding gay black men. I love it. By the way, you both referenced gay black men who want gay white men, which one of you said was a minority. I think what also needs to be said about gay black men who want white men, is that these are men that were likely to have grown up in predominately white areas. As I’m sure the both of you know, it’s not uncommon for middle-class blacks to grow up in predominately white areas in the U.S. Blacks make up only 13% of the U.S. population while whites make up 74% of the U.S. population and 80% counting Hispanic whites. Not only that but the vast majority of whites are solidly middle-class while vast majority of blacks lower middle class. The solidly middle-class blacks, which is a minority, are the ones who are most likely to be living in all-white areas. I was a solidly middle-class black male growing up in all-white areas my whole life. That means if I saw anyone who was hot, he was always white. I rarely if ever had any exposure to black men. Most of what we see in gay porn and everywhere else is white, white, white, white this and white that. It was only when I realized these realities and went the extra mile of actually looking for pictures of black men and going out of my way into the city areas to be around blacks, that I realized wow @ how being surrounded around one race for so long can totally fool you into thinking that beauty is only within that race of people. Perhaps that’s what the problem with whites is. I don’t know and neither do I care. My point is, have sympathy for these gay black men who want whites because it’s natural to begin feeling attraction to a grew of people when they are the only ones you ever see the majority of the time. What they do not need is further harsh comments and opinions. They will get enough of that from the rednecks they will most undoubtably deal with. What they need is understanding, education, and most importantly, exposure to beautiful black beauty. In my humble opinion, dark black men. ;) I’ve grown to become more and more and more attracted to very dark-skinned black males. I myself and lighter; mocha-colored to be exact. Over the years, I’ve realized my preference is strong, dark chocolate men. Not caramel. Dark blacks usually have such flawless skin. I have clear skin too but I don’t think any race has as clear a skin as dark black men.

    I think it’s up to us gay black men to stick within our own race and strengthen our community. If we’re living in areas where we’re surrounded around whites, do anything and everything you can to move to middle-class black environments, especially Atlanta Georgia. If you’re lower-class, keep your head up and excel to a more middle-class black environment. I know it’s hard but it will be worth it. Just to educate my fellow gay brothas out there, here are the top ten best places to live for African Americans
    http://www.therealestatebloggers.com/top-10-real-estate-lists/the-top-ten-best-cities-for-african-americans/ And here are the top ten worst places to live for African Americans http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tkssaNgyyvAJ:www.blackcommentator.com/146/146_cover_dixon_ten_worst.html+worst+cities+for+african+americans&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

    According to the sites, these conclusions are based upon such facts and figures as useful measures of family income, home ownership, life expectancy, education levels, unemployment, underemployment, racially selective policing, prosecution, and mass imprisonment, etc. Believe it or not, these factors exacerbate the gay experience for blacks as well so keep that in mind. That’s why lower-class gay black men have it so rough.
    It’s important to note that most of the black community is lower middle-class. The solidly middle-class blacks are in the minority. Just some things to keep in mind.

    That brings me to my last and final point to any solidly middle-class gay black men out there living in predominately white areas? I know it’s all you all are exposed to but seriously, expand your horizons. Why choose to with someone white when very light skin shades are already a possibility within the African American race. Both very light skin shades and very dark skin shades are possibilities within our diverse African American community. Only light skin shades are the possibilities in the white race. We African Americans are thee most diverse in skin tone because we’re multiracial, mixed with black, white, AND Native American. Because of that, we can range all across the board in skin tone unlike other racial groups, whites in particular. This is evidenced in the darkest skinned African Americans, such as Wesley Snipes, and the lightest skinned African Americans, like Tisha Campbell and Sinbad; not to mention, the slews of color shades in-between those two hues. That’s the cool thing about African Americans: we have the widest variety in skin tones, ranging practically across the entire board, from pitch-dark to the color of whites when tanned. In fact, the lightest African Americans, like Tisha Campbell, Sinbad, my dad, my aunt, and my cousin are lighter than most biracials in fact. Example: Mulatto: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.starhotspot.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/tia_mowry1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.starhotspot.com/page/126/%3Fs&usg=__dBF2dzDJriOzZwP4p570xItLudk=&h=240&w=320&sz=22&hl=en&start=15&zoom=1&tbnid=lml2XD3Nb_mzAM:&tbnh=149&tbnw=194&ei=hDOgTeXbBo_PtweC_dX0Ag&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTia%2BMowry%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1T4GGLL_enUS364US364%26biw%3D1259%26bih%3D485%26tbm%3Disch0%2C238&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=261&vpy=208&dur=702&hovh=192&hovw=256&tx=156&ty=125&oei=ejOgTb-WDvO60QGs7_ydBQ&page=2&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:15&biw=1259&bih=485 AND light-skinned African American: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm276/El-Flippo/Thumbs%25202/TishaCampbell-Tisha1993.jpg&imgrefurl=http://s298.photobucket.com/albums/mm276/El-Flippo/Thumbs%25202/%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DTishaCampbell-Tisha1993.jpg%26newest%3D1&usg=__ts8zp20iMJ13EVncHOUCPtW73TE=&h=500&w=480&sz=90&hl=en&start=269&zoom=1&tbnid=cb7avUJQ65oDyM:&tbnh=147&tbnw=176&ei=EjSgTdj3CsuEtgfV4_H3Ag&prev=/search%3Fq%3DTisha%2BCampbell%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GGLL_enUS364US364%26biw%3D1259%26bih%3D485%26tbm%3Disch&chk=sbg&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=171&oei=BTSgTb_SMIOa0QGX49H_BA&page=19&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:269&tx=111&ty=106 — The fact that African Americans are multiracial is shown very clearly in the lightest to darkest of African Americans and the large variety in-between. On the other hand, the darkest of Caucasians to the lightest of Caucasians isn’t nearly as wide of a scope as the darkest African Americans and the lightest African Americans. The darkest of Mongoloids and the lightest of Mongoloids, while having a wider color variation scope than whites, do not have nearly as wide a scope as African Americans.

  • MascTA said:

    To me, it’s how you say it.

    I happen to be a bi mixed black man who prefers white guys. Not that I haven’t hooked up with other (hot!) black men. But I tend to go for a specific type of white guy. With girls, I prefer exotic women and women of color. But with guys, yes, I do prefer the gringos.

    Because this prference narrows my hookup/dating pool, I reflect on it a lot. Is it *gulp* self-loathing? Is it — as my friend suggests — because the first guy who seduced me was white? Is it because I have always been drawn to those different from me?

    On the other hand, there are a good many white guys who are *really* into black dudes (lucky me) and not at all ashamed of it — so why should I feel conflicted for my preference?

    So I was very careful, when wording my profiles, to not demean my race and thus myself when stating my preference. Because if I’m not into other black guys, why should any guy be into me?

    So I settled on putting in my profile that I “enjoy interracial”. I hope that states my attraction preference in an subtle, non-offensive way.

    I don’t think it’s wrong to ask people to be thoughtful, sensitive, and polite when it comes to race issues, which are always sticky.

  • Oliver said:

    Oh Christ, has this thread gone off the rails? All I see is black people making assumptions about what white people think and white people making assumptions about what black people think. I don’t know about you people but I’m not a psychic and I don’t assume anyone anywhere wants to fuck me unless they make it crystal clear. I would hope that most people carry the same attitude. As for the commenter who was interested in a site for gay black men and those who are interested in them, if you click on some of the adds featuring black models on a4a you will see that one of them links to a site specifically for interracial dating. Now, I can’t promise that the white men on that site will be the Adonis you so clearly deserve but at least you won’t have to deal with bigoted statements. As for a4a, I’ve been on that site for some time now and will go through page after page of profiles and maybe look at three. The place is filled with morons and douchebags! As such, the only people who have a lot of success there are morons and douchebags! That sentiment can also be applied to the gay community as a whole. As a gay white male, I don’t even want to hang out with those people. The point I’m trying to make is it’s hard for anyone who isn’t shallow and/or an asshole to find people to hang out with. That’s not to say that there isn’t a problem with race in the gay community, of course there is. But if you think if you can’t find anyone outside of your race to to even be friends with, you aren’t looking hard enough. Search google for activities that take place outside of the club or the bar. These aren’t dens of enlightenment! You could even get off the internet altogether and visit the nearest lgbt center. You can find all sorts of activities that generally attract a more sophisticated crowd there.

    I think the racial problems between white gay men and gay men of color stems ultimately from lack of exposure. When I came out of the closet at 18 I was desperate to find other gay people so I called the lgbt center at Duke to see what they had to offer. They suggested that I join their queer youth support group. I was the only white person in the group.It was uncomfortable at first but over time I began to loosen up and I eventually made my closest and longest-lasting friendships there. To this day, the good times I had there are some of the fondest memories I have. I also turned into a young white man who regularly finds himself attracted to black, Hispanic, Asian, White etc.
    I think the key to fixing this problem is for us as a community to invest our time and energy in to programs like the one I was in as a kid. I’m not saying we should drop a white kid in a room full of black people but we need to have a place where people of all races are actually encouraged to interact with each other. If that doesn’t lead to romantic attraction, that’s fine but at least we can stamp out the ignorance that is apparently rampant in the gay community.

  • WTF said:

    I’ve been reading the posts now for a little over a year. It’s evolution has been interesting. Perhaps, as Oliver has suggested the discussion has “derailed”. However I pose that it hasn’t derailed as much as it presents the depth of racism not only in the “gay community”, but also how it has insidiously crept into the very fiber of our society as a whole.

    Although there has been a lot of improvement in race relations in this country, it’s clear that we’re far from any resolution. Tontare, JJ, sorry guys, I have to disagree with the both of you. You go to such extremes in your views that neither is contributing to real, honest progress. Tontare, I find your attitude toward white males as offensive as the behavior that you propose comes solely from them. There is no reason why black and whites cannot date each other. None.

    I happen to have been living and loving a white man for the past eight years. Yes, I’m attracted to the color of his skin, yes I love the texture of his hair, the color of his eyes. All of those things, make up the man that I love. In return, he’s attracted to the same features I possess, minus the hair, because I’m bald. However the hair that I still have he caresses with the sincerity of one man loving another.

    I understand your rancor toward racism. I understand that you have worked very hard to get to where you are, and that you were born into a social status that is not typically expected from us, and resent any assumption made of you because of the color of your skin. I think every black man despises the sad but all too real pain that bubbles up when one faces such stupid behavior. However, taking the position that one should only date to marry within one’s race is far too extreme a position to take if indeed the problem of racism is to go away. Isn’t what you’re suggesting the problem to begin with. Separation of the races is not the answer. I’m not saying that we should “just all get along”, I’m just saying that if we, as in all Americans, continue to feed the racism by keeping to our own, so will the yokel-like behavior continue.

    JJ, “Black people are some of the most racist people in the US.” Really? I can’t imagine the study you’ve conducted to come to such an, excuse me, but, ridiculous conclusion. Since I’ve not met every single American, I cannot say that any particular group of people is most racist in the country. Suffice it say, that such a conclusion is impossible to prove. Can you say, in fact that all black people are more racist than, let’s say, David Duke? Just one instance. Please go here: http://www.whitecivilrights.com/. I’m just saying.

    Being of mixed race myself, Afro-Caribbean, and having strong African features, I can tell you, that racism has very long tendrils, and can appear when and from one least expects it. I’m not denying that there are blacks that are racist, but will end by proposing that perhaps you should revisit your statement, and reflect on whether it is factual or is a result your particular clouded experience.

    We, LGBT people, as a group of people that continues to live under persecution for being whom we are, need to think beyond the status quo. Although we are all a product of this society, we need not continue to act with animosity toward each other.

    The initial premise of this thread was to state the lack of respect on a sex-site. However it seems to have taken a more visceral turn. Perhaps, this is what we need in our community. More honest and open discussion of issues that no one really wants to jump into. Perhaps, the New Gay, has finally touched on a live nerve in an otherwise, bland, somewhat self-centric, and holier than thou website. Sorry TNG, but have always found TNG, to be the TSOT (The Same Old Thing).

    We should have more of these discussions, with the focus to strengthen the gay community. We should put all of our crap on the table, and admit to the failure of the gay movement. But that’s another thread to be started.

    Tonetare, and JJ, I wasn’t trying to single either one of you, and I’m not one who necessarily believes in moderation when it comes to societal issues, however, I do feel that polarization is the last thing the LGBT people need. Just my opinion.

  • Eddie said:

    Quite frankly a good for conversation piece to stir more shit.. but Really?
    The color of the skin, the body type, hair color, eyes, and hight are …. YES!!!! a preference when it comes to fooling around an having sex with someone. I put no blacks on my profile. But I see where some whites put Black only. I see where Blacks put Black only. Or white only. Ya know why.. it’s a preference. FOR SEX. Stupid article. You are one of the people that find it necessary to race bate or something. Go out and live life an next time your playing on a sex site. Go for someone that has you as a Preference and don’t get so strung out when your turned down by someone you would really like to bed but does not want to sleep with you.

  • WTF said:

    Eddie

    Your points has been made already many times over. The point of the article is not about whether one should or should not be forced to have sex with someone they not attracted to. It’s more about the racial conditioning, and presumptions we make of each other. It’s more subtle than it just being a “preference”. I think discussions of race issues in the LGBT world has merit. As it should in all parts of our society as a whole. You can ignore these issues if you want to, but they do exist, and some are more affected by them than others with no doubt.

    Perhaps you should think about the article more critically before labeling is as “stupid”.

  • kevin said:

    I am sick and tired of black men saying things, that others being racist to them. They never say that black people being racist also!!! There are tons of profiles of black people which say no white men, no whites etc. Just stop being annoying and stop cry everywhere about yr race all the time!!! this is rediculous!!!!

  • WTF said:

    Kevin,

    Please read my statement to Eddie, just a little above yours. I’m sorry your “sick and tired” of hearing black men “..cry everywhere about [yr] race…”. I sick and tired of it also, however it is a burden that we all have to bear. I wonder if straight people feel the same way you do about discriminatory acts against the LGBT community. I suppose it’s talking about apples and oranges to you, however my argument would be for an explanation of the difference.

    You know what I find appalling in this line? No one, has come up with a more nuanced opinion about preference vs. learned bigotry, discrimination, prejudice, or whatever. Nothing has been said here that has not been said before. All I read is about the delicacies of physical sexual preferences, it’s almost as if we’re discussing the preferences of the colors of cars!

    The truth of the matter is that racism exists. I’m not defending that blacks also discriminate against whites. Yes it happens. The reality is that people discriminate against each other. It may even be wired in us. I don’t know. The question is, should we accept racism be acceptable at all, without question?

    Call it what you want, “preference”, when it comes to sexuality, is yes a personal decision. But to deny that there may be even a probable element of racism, just a mite, within that “preference” is inane.

    Again, I say, we (LGBT) as an oppressed people, cannot disavow that the problem of racism exists in our community, as we are, and let’s face it, a part of a country that has had a very dark (no pun)history of sickly behavior toward people of color.

    To be “sick and tired”, or think that this article is “stupid”, or whatever other demonetization or admonishment you all can come with, is in fact missing the point of the article.

    We should push ourselves to think bigger.

  • Handel said:

    I think you should not yourself for being black. Instead of hating yourself,realize you are a blessed for being black. Because black guys are lucky for having an enormous talent.

  • Handel said:

    I do not want the new gay. I want the same thing. No, it is fine. You do not have to.

  • WTF said:

    Handel,

    I don’t know who you’re directing your post to, or what the hell are you talking about? If your intention was levity, you have fallen flat on your tongue-in-cheek. Your attempt at taking a jocular take on this topic, is at best loathsome and worse misses the essence of the article entirely. The person who wrote the article is white.

    What you’ve done with your simple-minded post is expose exactly what is trying to be explored here. Is our “talent” the only thing that is worth being proud about. I won’t even go to the cliche nature of your post. That would be too demoralizing.

    Simply said, you’re a moron. One thing I do agree with you is that I wonder if the New Gay exists at all. Although there are historical changes in attitude toward LGBT people, there seems to be little if any progress within the community itself. Well, in defense of this article, perhaps there is a trickle of change happening. Unfortunately, you represent far too many others that refuse any positive evolution.

  • Asen said:

    It is hard for you to understand me. The majority of guys have average size penis, and few guys are well endowed and are very talented. But, there is a difference of black guys between all of us. Black guys are so lucky. Believe me. I met a mulatto guy who has had a huge penis, that measured for thirteen inches and half. I also have met an American guy that I thought he would have the biggest penis in the world because of the porno movies. I liked the American guy and believe me he was so cute and so hot and so darling sexy. We went and agree and when we met each other, and I touched his groin and I felt so amused and felt the rush to see his groin. I asked him if I can see him and asked him to take his penis out. He took out of his penis. Oh, my gosh. I cannot believe. I was very disappointed. The handsome American and the Sexy American, has had little sexual organ, that I was shocked and could not believe. I lost the desire to have sex with this sexy and hot guy that I have had the illusion with full of fantasies that has led me to disappointment. I have learned that White Americans have little penis. I met a black guy who has a very enormous penis, that I have had my eyes open and could not believe it and it was sexy and hot. I learned that black guys have big penis. I have learned and met Mexican guy who has small penis, too. I met many guys and few guys have big penis. Then, I declare that the survey were right that the majority of guys have average penis and few guys have bigger penis. I have learned to love a guy without having a huge or small penis. The heart is very important. Because there are lots of guys who are normal and average. Alas, the porno are really scandalous because they make money to impress people. You know business make scandalous to attract people so that they buy them. It is a good technique that business men do to attract people that they buy them. Wow! I have had a bad stereo type that all men have big penises. Since, I have made a huge mistake. It is like saying everyone is good person. Fantasies are not real. stereotypes is like believing all guys have big penises. I wondered that guys never asked me because they have small penises. The ones who have had huge penises were the ones who asked me to date with me. Hahaha, believe me, it is very funny. I like white guys because I am also white. I want a white boyfriend. But, I think it is not going to happen. White guys wants only Asians. Blacks wants everyone. I was thinking that Asians have had huge penises because White guys go with them and also with Mexicans. I have learned a lot about them. Because I tell you that I met a handsome guy who has small penises and there is a few percentage of guys who have big penises. Surveys were right! You know what? The message is for everyone who can read. That’s logical.

  • Andi said:

    if a post says no whites. Fine. There are others. Move on. Always use condoms. Enjoy. Do not abuse the power of sex.

  • teesoup said:

    @Asen, you lost me in all of what you’re saying. What does all of this size crap has to do with anything? How old you, anyway? Are you old enough be on this post? How are black guys lucky? Being well endow does not make you lucky. Do you know what black gay men go through? Also, I don’t know where you are from, but I don’t see white guys “only” chasing Asian men. Asian men still have hard times too in the gay community; as they are stereotyped like Blacks in one form or another. And, what makes you an expect on Black men? What makes you think black men want “everybody”? Where do you get this concept from? You are speaking as though black men are desperate. Black men are picky like everyone else. You are definitely on the wrong post, darlin’. This blog has nothing to with the penis sizes of Mexicans and Asians. You are all over the place, dude!

  • Shalele said:

    One day I wanted to join in a white gays society but I was asked by a counselor and interviewed the way I talk. He said that I was not welcome because my accent is very offensive that could cause them feel bad and low self esteem. Believe me, I was upset. I wanted to be with them. Because I have had fun with the Latinos and others in many societies like support group. It was so fun. He gave me rules how I should speak, and he said that I should not speak, You, and I must speak with the word, I, because the word I is only me and not you. For example, You are the one who the one who made the mistake. He said, the right way to say: I made the mistake, and I will correct as soon as much as I can, I am sorry. It is my fault. I have learned to speak about myself and I and not you. Because I spoke so much about the word “You”. He was concerned about me and the gay white community. He knew I speak English so well, but he was concerned of me course he should. Because if I say something about You, you will cry and get upset. I am not sensitive. I did not pass the test. I lost. I was asked by him with a nice suggestion and gave me a paperback rules how to speak about I, what not to say about the word You.

  • JustaGuy said:

    It amazes me that the author of this article feels that violence, force or threat of force should be used to prevent people from choosing what traits they find desirable in a sexual partner. In order to end people from stating their preference (freedom of speech anyone?) the owners of adam4adam would have to spend money and time monitoring members profiles. Let’s face it even if they attempted to curtail free speech and the natural right of association on their website… its not going to be able to force their members to hook up with blacks just because some blacks want to hook up with white men! It is already intolerable that the federal government has stripped the people of their natural right of association in conducting business but it is absolutely unacceptable to lose the right of association in your personal life. I applaud adam4adam for not interfering with its members freedom of speech, preferences and likes/dislikes when choosing their friends, hookup partners, etc.

  • WTF said:

    JustaGuy

    Perhaps I have to read the article again, but I don’t remember any sort of violence or force being in the article. My take of the article is that it questions the validity of brutally stating once color preference for sex, it did not refer to friendship or any other type of association. Nor does it propose any breech of the first amendment. You have the right to say what you want, heck, you can even use the “N” word if you’d like.

    The initial query is whether or not any of us have the right to offend any other person; and where, how, why those “preferences” are so dear to us that we lash out at anyone that in any way is able to see how these preferences may somehow leech out to the rest of beliefs.

    It’s a simple matter of being aware of the power of words, the insipid nature of racism, in general, not just white on black racism. There’s plenty to go around for all of us. Personally, I think there is little to none to condone such behavior.

    My question on this thread has always been, would any of us openly say to someone, face-to-face, “No: ‘whites’, ‘black’, ‘Asians’, ‘Pacific Islander’, ‘Sub-continentals’,'Irish’, or ‘Siberian Brunettes only’, without expecting some sort of a backlash or at least a grievance? Would you state you exclusive sexual preference to anyone, face to face? I don’t think so. I don’t understand why everyone is so laissez faire about bad behavior when it comes to sexual/racial exclusivity, when we wouldn’t tolerate verbal abuse, for example, a gay slur against us from a straight hater. It may be a bad analogy, however I think you get my drift.

    We hide behind our computer screens and somehow we think that gives us the right to acrimony. In my opinion, futile as it may be, it seems not. None of us have the right to breech what would otherwise be considered inappropriate behavior.

    I do agree with you that the owners of A4A should not be marshaling posts on their website. It should be a given that we men treat each other with some modicum of politeness.

    BTW, I am not either a southern belle, who gets the vapors while reading of color A4A posts (no pun). Nor am I an angry black man ready to deal the race card at any given time. I am however curious about the defense of what I consider disparaging behavior. I even dare pose that most of this thread can be divided along racial lines. I think it’s important to be curious rather than defensive when it comes to human nature, so many of our problems would be resolved if we thought for just one second how their actions/likes/dislikes may affect another person.

    Granted, I know this is all about sex site, and obviously you don’t want your right to preference monitored by anyone. However remember that our right to sexual preference is and has been a federal case for as long as I remember, an issue that is slowly unraveling. Yet still very present in our lives.

    So associate with whomever you want, say what ever you want, just remember that even if you are white, you are also a gay man, who is federally being restricted simply because of who you are and whom you prefer to sleep with.

  • Another Jeremy said:

    @ JustaGuy

    Natural right of association in conducting business? That sounds like a polite way of saying the right to discriminate on the basis of skin color. I’m glad you have such a libertarian with regards to freedom of speech. I must have missed your comments on the article about Tracy Morgan’s homophobic stand up comedy routine. I’d also love to hear you give similar advice to gay teens who are ostracized by religious zealots. After all, we can’t force religious people to accept gay people just because gay people want straight friends.

    This is yet another obtuse, pseudo intellectual, racist and embarrassing attempt to explain away the normalization of racialized sexual preferences and superficiality in the gay community. This article has never been about policing anyone’s “preferences.” It’s about questioning the origin of these “preferences” and the larger hierarchy of gay culture that tends to dehumanize men on the basis of their perceived sexual capital.

    I have no problem with people putting up that they do not “prefer” x type of men on whatever the newest online gay fucking venue is. I just take issue with gay men saying all people of a particular race or ethnic background are undesirable (physically or otherwise) and then getting mad when someone calls them racist. If it’s important enough for these clowns to say this type of shit in a public forum, then they should be prepared to deal with the backlash.

  • WTF said:

    @ Another Jeremy

    AMEN!

  • Don said:

    I don ‘t believe that is racist , many people are looking for black , or other like me , we don’ like asian , i can have asian friends and work with them , but when come to sex , I really don ‘t want go to bed with them , the reason it is not racist , it is chemistry .
    For another way I love black guys , I fell a lot of attraction even if I would prefer to hire for a job asian person than a black ,,,and you all know the reason ,,.do not play dumms .

  • WTF said:

    “For another way I love black guys , I fell a lot of attraction even if I would prefer to hire for a job asian person than a black ,,,and you all know the reason ,,.do not play dumms .”

    To be honest, I don’t understand most of what you wrote in your post, however that last “sentence” baffles me completely. Are you suggesting that even though you have what seems to be a strong attraction to black men, you would preferably hire an Asian man over a black man….and that we “all know the reason” why you would do that? Please, I’m really dumb, elucidate, because I don’t know what you mean.

    In the mean time, while you put together ideas for the explanation of your post, here’s a little information that I think you should read:

    http://www.policyalmanac.org/culture/archive/discrimination.shtml

  • Jay said:

    I live in Washington, DC, a predominantly Black city. I am White yet constantly see NO WHITES in A4A Ads. So what. Seeing that in an AD saves me the wasted effort of contacting someone who has already determined that I’m not a match.

    Would you like to make it illegal to discriminate who you will sleep with the way it is with employment? Rediculous.
    Disclosing your racial type, if you have one, expedites the process of finding the right match. I’m tired of political correctness and draw the line when it tries to enter a bedroom. Get a life.

  • WTF said:

    Jay,

    I’m not sure whom you’re directing your statement to, but since I’ve been keeping track of the thread since it’s was first opened, only because I find it fascinating, I thought I’d reply. Your point has been repeatedly made on this thread. No one is saying that there should be a law forcing anyone to bed with anyone they don’t want to. The discussion is about bad online behavior, and how that behavior affects others.

    What’s interesting is that the thread has devolved to this discussion about human rights, when the gist of the article, as I remember was not only about the total disregard of another person’s feelings, but also the underlying privilege of white people have in our society.

    Yes there are some black men that explicitly say, “no whites” in their profile, that doesn’t make it acceptable behavior overall. Presently I don’t visit any of the sex sites, as I heard that many of them are run by gay white republicans (yes, I have my own issues), and secondly, I’m married now and frankly don’t have the need for them. Let’s face it, most of the time it’s more about the chase with little substance to back it up. Personally, I didn’t find the need to produce a laundry list of preferences, and have wondered why so many people do.

    Going back to your point about black men having said laundry list as well. Frankly, my observation of these hook up sites is that it’s mostly white man who feel compelled to expedite the situation by listing preferences. Is it because you’re all so inundated with proposition from people of color, or is one per session too much to handle? How exasperating it must be.

    In any case, my question has always been, is the behavior that you consider “expediting” the final means, would be acceptable face to face? I doubt that you’d you chose to be as expedient in a real life, as opposed to virtual, situation. At least I hope you were taught as much by your parents. Being polite, whether online or face to face is not necessarily being politically correct. I dislike being PC as much as you or any other person, however there is always room, at least in my life, to being polite.

    I know DC well. I know the gay life in DC well. It’s mostly segregated and has been that way for many year. Perhaps it’s gotten better over the past few years. However, I do believe there is a little whiff of racism, as there is in most parts of our country. Why people think that that behavior does not extend to the online hookup sites, and/or why it’s admissible, is beyond me. Do you have any thoughts on that?

  • Garsen said:

    I think the right man for me is a wealthy man. Simpler. I met the wrong guys.

  • Garsen said:

    I would be not able to talk to any guy. He may seems as a gay guy. What if he is straight? He may beat me up. One occasion, I was hit by a white guy because he was so handsome. It happens. The reality is that I like only white guys. Since, this day, I do not talk to any man because I am so afraid to talk to anyone. No, my gosh! I would not dare to talk to anyone. Never. It is not going to happen. I really fear guys. They may appear as gay who are straight may give me another hit. No way. hey, white guys, did you have any experience like this?

  • Garsen said:

    Again, this white guy really hit me. Believe me he really made me cry. I decided never to talk to white guys because they are not gays. They are straights. I do not expect to meet a handsome white guy because it is fearful to talk to them. I really fear them. They are terrible. They are not nice guys. I have had a bad experience.

  • Garsen said:

    I really liked this white guy because he was an American guy. I was enamored and fascinated about this guy. But, I met this guy and was nice and friendly and told me: Mother fucker. The other day, I went to talk to him, and smiled him and shook my hand saying: hello. He was angry. He run away. One day, I was in school thinking about him. The bell rang, and I got sick and needed to go to the bathroom, and my brother was waiting for me and told him to go away because I need to do my stuffs. He left me and has gone to home. While I finished toileting the watering couch. I got out, and then I met the guy waiting for me inside in school. I looked at him and my heart started to pump and I ran away and he followed me and chased me and caught me and brought me and there were two guys with him and the two guys held the other of my right hand and the other of my left hand and he has hit my stomach and I was so desperate and scared and I started to scream and they were distracted when I also screamed and then I have started to bite his hand and he screamed too. I hit the other guy and started to look at the handsome guy and he stood scared and I ran away from him and they followed me and were chasing me and It was scary and I regretted for the rest of my life. I decided never to talk to any white guy. For this reason, I do not talk to any guy because I have had a bad experience. White guys are bad and I do not dare to talk to any white dude and fall in love with guys like these because they were bad with me. I do not expect to have any man in my life. I am afraid to talk to any guy since to day.

  • Garsen said:

    I wonder how lucky are the others guys who have sex while they do not get beaten. How lucky they are. I have been asking for so long.

  • Garsen said:

    I prefer white guys. Because I like white guys. Because I am also like white. White is white, even there are whiter guys does not matter. It still counts. I like white guys for special reasons.

  • Garsen said:

    But, I can’t be with a white guy. Because I am still afraid. I have decided never to talk to a white guy.

  • Tonetare said:

    Garsen, you’re a white man, aren’t you? lol!

  • Daniel said:

    Happened on this while doing a google search. It’s an interesting and worthwhile discussion. I’m of 2 minds about this. First, I agree it’s rude to be obnoxious about racial preferences – the poster can just say “thanks, not interested”. But then again, everyone does have preferences. Maybe it does save time and energy to state them explicitly.

    I have an a4a profile and I did have a statement on it that i love all types of men, but my favorite flavors were sweet, or spicy, or chocolate. I thought that was welcoming, and I do like men who are different from me. But thinking about it, after reading this post, I think what I said could be taken as biased, so I changed my profile to just say, I love all types of men.

    I am a white man. I’ve had 3 long term relationships, 2 have been interracial. Most of my dates have been with men who were black. But also latin and asian. I think, once you open certain types of doors, if the experience is good, you are more likely to go through them again and again. I think it’s sad and obnoxious that people discriminate. Looking at myself, I think maybe I practice a type of discrimination too – the opposite direction. Maybe it’s time for me to think about it some more.

  • WTF said:

    Thank you Daniel

    Finally a white man that can actually be introspective and reflective and not reflexive or defensive.

    That was the premise of the story. A man questioning his well grounded in presumption of all black men being one and the same, in one way or another.

  • Daniel said:

    WTF, thanks for the comment. To be honest, I wish I was not in a situation where A4A has a role in my life – my preference was always to be with one man. Life didn’t lead that way. It is what it is. On the brighter side, it gives me a chance to enjoy some of life’s pleasures. A4A is mostly hookup. It would be nice if there was a more friendship oriented site.

    I’ve been around enough to know there is no mold that men come from, black men, or white, or any other. Each of us is different, but we all have needs and desires that bring us together. If I had life to start over, there are things I would do differently, but I have no regrets about dating, and being in love with, or hooking up with, black men. Or Chinese or latin. It’s been really great. With a few heartbreaks along the way. Heartbreak also comes in all colors.

    As for being reflective, that’s one way we learn. We should never stop learning.

    Given how old the article is, it would be nice to think it’s no longer relevant, but I think that’s not the case.

  • WTF said:

    I wonder if this has been the longest running comments section The New Gay has received. It would be interesting to find the answer to that question. I suppose all we have to do is ask.

    I think your statement about how some never have ventured past people like them, and therefore holding on to imprecise perspectives is directly to the meat of the matter.

    If some of the men on here who have vigilantly protected their right to their preference, go back and read the article, they may realize the premise of the article. About how Jeremy G. was able to empathize with another person experience on these sex sites; and how being callous and rude does not equate with racial preference, but does with racial bias.

    The ironic part to all of this is, as we struggle for marriage equality, and an end to societal stigmatization of us, we, as a community fail to look at our own shortcomings. Well, at least many of us. There’s plenty for us to work on toward learning to be respectful toward each other. Thanks for the recognizing another point of view.

    Heartbreak….OY! Another topic altogether.

  • mark said:

    And to everyone saying “preference” ..its clearly about RACISM..this stuff bings a person down! Just DON’T respond. The only ppl defendingthis are racist ppl lol, and u can tell that they’re ________..nevermind we won’t go there. I love how racist people mke up excuses for their racism. If u say that on a site, I’m pretty sue u think the same thing Everyday,,, ur just too scared to say it in public.

  • Jimmy said:

    I agree that (especially in the states) this issue comes mainly from white gay guys, here in the UK adam4adam is barely used but i’ve only come accross two white gay profiles that said “no blacks” and one was definitely an american visiting the UK.

    I must preface this with I almost never see race being mentioned on the more popular gaydar, it seems to be an adam4adam issue. On that site, I have however seen black gay men often posting “black only”, “looking for black or mixed”, “no whites or asians” and once even “caucasians need not apply”, and even a couple whites saying “black or mixed only”. I’ve even seen black and white profiles saying “black or white”, i.e. No south asians. I am SICK of this being painted as a purely white gay men being sexually racist towards black gay men! Sexual racism should be attacked in ALL its forms not just one.

  • Another_Jeremy said:

    @ Jimmy

    There are certainly men who profess racialized “preferences” who are not white. But let’s be serious, it’s mostly white men. Because white men dominate the gay scene, particularly in the US. Hearing white men talk about how black men and Asians are equally culpable in creating this racial hierarchy reminds me of hearing Right-Wing Christians talk about how intolerant of Christianity gay people are. I’m sure it happens, but conflating the institutionalized racism and inexplicable absence of minorities on gay publications and in gay media with profiles of random non-white men stating their racial “preferences” rings a little hollow. A lot hollow, actually. Just sayin.

  • Cookie Crisp said:

    Im sorry to disappoint people but its simply a preference. we are gay we more than anyone should know that you cant choose who or what your attracted to however you can choose to act on that attraction or not 2. Im gay and black and white guys ask me out all the time im not one of those light skinned blacks either im your average black kid. I also am almost never attracted to black men. Not to say there arent some sexy ass black guys but every guy i have ever loved or dated or felt something for has been white asian latino or cuban. I didnt say hey im going to find white guys to be hot i just do probably because they are different from what I am so I can see the beauty in there differences. However I will say when somebody consciously says i will not date blacks thats a problem to consciously state you will not date another race makes you an ignorant fool who should be cleansed from the earth. I dont consciously choose weather I will like somone it just happens.

  • Laura P. said:

    White racism in dating manifests itself in many ways. There are those who seek to date only other whites, which is clearly racists. There are others who seek to date only other races, which is racial fetishization and thus also racist. Still others date on a “colorblind” basis, but if you know anything about anti-racist discourse, you know that colorblindness is also racist.

  • WTF said:

    Laura P.

    Well said. Most people on here don’t understand the nuances that are inherent in racism. How could see if they’re right smack in the middle of committing it.

    What interesting about this debate is that those, white or black, who go around spouting that when it comes to sex, stating their sexual preference fail to understand the simple fact that blacks, women in general, Latinos, Asians, anything that doesn’t come under the designation of “white male”, are still people who are discriminated against on a daily basis. Moreover, these men fail to realize that they are contributing to that a behavior that has cost, and have damaged lives for generations. All they think about is their immediate pleasure and that that pleasure is expedited by cutting out those deemed as undesirable. Is their time while hunting online that precious?

    What is the difference between that preference and refusing housing to a person of color, or sex, or sexual orientation, simply because the person renting prefers to live amongst their own. Still a preference, yet had to made an illegal practice because it was morally wrong. this may not be a good parallel, and I don’t think that people should be forced to have sex with others they’re not attracted to. However the fundamental problem is that it persists the myths and lies that have become a part of our country’s history.

    As gay people we are not privy to a GO PASS sign that makes us immune from bad behavior. And basically that’s what all this talk about protecting one’s right to be preferential to any particular type and to speak out loud, it’s just bad behavior. I can even say it’s lazy. It’s hard work to undo the damage of many years of entitlement by one race of people. Hard but not insurmountable. Get with it guys.

  • Cookie Crisp said:

    to wtf.

    You sound intelligent and you clearly have a well established vocabulary however I will pose you a question. My favorite color is blue if asked what color would I like to look at all day I would choose blue. Does that mean I think less of the other colors does that mean I find no beauty in the other colors or does it simply mean that blue is my favorite color? Im gay and I will always choose to have a relationship with a man over a woman does that mean I think less of women because I don’t want to go out with any of them? Although your post has logic attached to it it is somewhat hypocritical for a gay person to state that gay men selectively picking there Ideal partner based on a bunch of superficial qualities Is racist. In a sense you being gay and not being with women could be seen the same way. I don’t go out with women not because I don’t like them not because I think less of them as human beings not because I think they are worthless or ugly but simply because I am attracted to men. Period end of discussion. So If I state I want some superficial only hot guy like i don’t know “Shawn Roberts” drools lol to go out with that doesn’t mean I think any less of anybody else s appearance it solely means that if given the choose that’s what is appealing to me. Second of all do not look for morality on online dating sites look for a bunch of horny men looking for there one night stand fantasy and expecting you to meet there qualifications. Str8 guys ask me all the time why dont I date women because they are surprised when they find me to be gay the only answer I can give them is that because im just not attracted to them. If a white guys said he didn’t date blacks I would wonder why that is and if he told me he is just not attracted to them I would be like okay. People say its a form of unconscious discrimination I highly disagree whats wrong with being selective about who you date. If i have to date a hobo or a guy making 1 million dollars a day and I pick the hobo does that mean I think less of the guy with money. Does that men I think hes lower than I. You cant force someone to be attracted to you then get mad when there not into your race. All you do is say ok and find someone who does like you. Anybody ignorant enough to not see the beauty in all of the races isnt somebody Id want to go out with anyway. Be happy these guys let you know up front they don’t like dating blacks so you don’t waste your time with them get your feelings hurt or be treated any way other than how you deserve to be treated.

  • DK said:

    To compare the color blue to race shows exactly the kind of glib and unaware ignorance that generates unthinking racial preferences in the first place.

    None of the things you mention have a history in this country comparable to race. Racial dating preferences have to be looked at in the context of that history. I do not begrudge anyone their race preferences. However, I begrudge those who won’t even consider why they have them.

    There’s a reason American gays are far less likely to date outside of their race than gays in other countries. It’s because of social learning about race in American society. Nobody is BORN preferring one race over another. These are learned preferences linked to the environment in which our personalities form.

    Don’t give up your race preferences. But do consider what it is like to be a member of a group who has been historically marginalized because of their race, and who continue to be rejected for even platonic friendships for no other reason than their race. No, it won’t change the preferences you’ve LEARNED to have, but it might just cause you to be more empathetic.

  • Cookie Crisp said:

    to dk

    well dk sorry i was born in 1991 im a child of modern age. My parents told me that white people were nothing but worthless trash and raised me to hate them. At 5 years old i thought my parents ideals were stupid seeing as my first best friend was white. It was then that I learned although my parents mean well they are not always right i learned to think for myself. The fact that you think comparing the color blue to a persons racial ethnicity shows unaware ignorance simply shows your own. Women were treated like shit that should only be abused and used for sex by men. Women were treated as though they were worthless and only good for breeding. They were seen as to stupid to even be allowed to vote or work a “mans job”. So to sound all heavenly and unrealistic we should love people for ONLY who they are on soul and character alone. If that was the case sexuality would not exist people would just be with people. Gays should not only date men but women as well by your logic. Women were oppressed theres a history of women being treated a certain way. You clearly state nobody is BORN with those preferences. You sound hypocritical how the hell would you know? str8 people tell me nobody is BORN gay all the time and im pretty damn sure i was. Racial preference dating is not always about the stereotypical qualities associated with race its about superficial ones. If a guy likes big breasted women he dates them becuase he likes looking at there chest. Some people find one skin tone more attractive than the other. Some people like feeling a diff texture of hair when they hug somebody. The point is for gay people to bitch about racial preferences coming up to the dating scene is hypocracy at its finest to me. Thats like saying if your not bisexual stating you will only date women or men is an insult. women have a history of oppression in this country your point being? You cant make somebody like you. People say gays have a problem for not liking women in a romantic sense now your saying people who prefer to date solely one race are being unconsciously taught by society to have bias preferences and that its an issue. The same thing could easily be said about your sexuality. I just find it funny for a group of people(gays) who are not heavily accepted in society to go around saying selective race dating is bias. Race cannot be helped your born a race gender cannot be helped your born one. So for a gay man to say he only wants to date men is the same thing I know you would like it to be different so that you sound right but its honestly no different at all. So am I a problem because i only date men. Thats like writing an article saying I would hate to be a woman on adam4adam. Loose your self centered im right about everything everyone else is ignorant in comparison to my vast knowledge type attitude and expand your horizons. Calling someone elses thinking ignorant without attempting to first understand where they come from simply shows your own grow up sir.

  • DK said:

    Again, instead of getting on the defensive you should stop and think. Sexual orientation is not learned. Neither is sexual orientation is not a “preference.”

    On the contrary, a racial “preference” is just that: a learned preference. Scientists have concluded that whether a person sleeps with men, women, or both is based on inborn biological factors. So before you display your defensive ignorance again, please point to the science that says whether a person sleeps with blacks, whites, Asians, Latinos or all of the above is rooted in biological factors.

    There is none. About 10% of the worlds population ACROSS ALL CULTURES is gay and has been throughout history. Highly racialized sexual preferences among those gays exist primarily in America. More proof that race preference has nothing to do with biology and everything to do with social learning in America.

    So, yes, you are very ignorant if you cannot tell the difference between sexual orientation, male/female genitalia, and race preferences in dating. If you cannot figure out which those are rooting in DNA and which are rooting in learned behavior, then you are probably dumb as rocks.

  • cookie crisp said:

    Well wtf clearly you like to argue I’m to busy enjoying life to fight with a grown man over the internet love you and have a very nice day

  • WTF said:

    Crispy..

    I find your logic completely indecipherable. A blue wall is a blue wall. Walls have not in any way been discriminated against in our history. The reason for that is that blue walls are inanimate things.

    People on the other hand are sentient beings. We as human experience the world in a very distinct way. We can actually hurt. We can actually be subjugated. We can feel the anger and hatred from others. We are instinctual beings. We are not blue walls.

    The argument is null.

    What this article and comments are about how people should treat each other. I saw too very contrasting profiles on A4A today. One described his preferences as such: “I like black men. Strong muscles and confident.”, that was from a black man. To contrast in more ways than one. The other preferred too be dominate and was “picking up more bitches for his pleasure. No blacks…sorry just my preference.”, that was from a white man. I quoted the black man to the other, so that he could see there is a way of stating one’s preference without being an ass about it.

    I pose to you, as I have over and over again on this thread. If you were in a bar and a man of color walked up to you to chat you up, would you face to face say to that man, “I don’t date black me.”? Would any of us be that bold. I doubt we would fearing and well deserved busted nose.

    I was not arguing with you. DK was the one challenging your logic,which truth be told, needs some some adjustment.

  • Jimmy said:

    Funny, I see waaay more profiles posted by black guys that say “no whites” than the other way around. But as usual, that’s perfectly fine. Goes completely unnoticed, doesn’t it.

  • Another_Jeremy said:

    @ Jimmy

    You are a liar.

  • WTF said:

    Jimmy, Yes there are black men that can be as abrasive and insensitive as whites. I doubt very much that there are more black men than white men who state their preference, I’ve been on A4A for many years, and have not notice your conclusion at all. What I have noticed is black men stating the they and looking for “other brothers”.

  • andre said:

    Its all too common. Some gays have no sense of irony about the issue. There are others though that understanding this, simply don’t care. Luckily, for once, its a good things heterosexuals see as odd and stay out of the day to day details of our lives. If this very prevalent attitude somehow became known to the mainstream, we could probably kiss any sympathizers goodbye

  • cntryman said:

    PLease, I cannot believe this discussion is still going on after so long. Why can’t someone state their preferences? Everyone has a right to like what they like. I make no apologies to anyone for saying I like white guys only, age and size doesn’t matter either. If the guy is hot, then I don’t give a damn about his weight, age, or so on, but I do want him to be a white man. That’s me and if someone is bothered by it, then it’s his/her problem, not mine.

  • Jeremy Gloff said:

    And to think – I wrote this in the pre-Grindr universe. Before every guy in the world was “masc and chill”.

  • WTF said:

    @ Jeremy G

    You forgot that now in the post Grindr world, the terms “fun” and “networking”, have replaced SEX as disireable terms. I can understand “fun”, afterall a hood healthy

  • WTF said:

    @ Jeremy G

    You forgot that now in the post Grindr world, the terms “fun” and “networking”, have replaced SEX as disireable terms. I can understand “fun”, afterall a good, healthy sexual experience is, well, fun. I cannot understand though how “networking” has become a viable substitution. Who in the world is looking to network at 3am?

  • Snappy said:

    As a gay Latino in Texas I completely agree that this is very true with most gay sites and socially as well. I happen to have mostly white/ Latino friends and welcome gay black men but they tend to keep a distance and prefer to be more “party friends” than close. At social functions where there are few black men I’ve overheard countless times very racist comments that shocked me and made me realize that the gay community is not the big gay welcoming family they portray to be. It’s not just white men but other ethnicities as well. Although I have faced little discrimination that I am aware of I am sure some have the same views of Latino men especially those with darker features. Sure, gays can be very exclusive based on age, weight, financial status etc but when racial slurs are used against a whole race with no condemnation…it does take it to another level.

  • Brian said:

    When I clicked on this link, I thought it was going to say they feel sorry for black guys on A4A, because they must have a ton of smiles and messages. I live in South Florida, and although some people aren’t into “chocolate,” A LOT are. It just so happens that I’m a white guy that prefers black guys, so I notice the competition. Florida is crazy is many ways, but not a whole lot of people in SF care about much of anything when it comes to things of this nature. All kinds and colors of people are coming and going all the time speaking all different languages. I guess everyone is used to a very mixed crowd.

  • sinead said:

    So if a black guy says no white’s please would you consider that to be racist to? Is it not possible in your eyes for someone to only be attracted to just white people or just black people or asian people? Is it not fair to say everyone has a type they fancy so somewhere along the line certain people are not wanted not just because of their skin colour but because they’re not muscular enough or they’re too fat, their hair is too long, they’re not tall enough for me etc etc….

  • James said:

    There will never be an end to prejudice or preference ever as it’s mankind genetic makeup. Ugly or fat or short people experience it daily I guess the best thing is not worry about it too much. As a white guy, sure my first preference isn’t for black, but part of it is HIV and other diseases are much higher among blacks. I am afraid of white guys too but I go with the safer. Otherwise I wouldn’t be nearly as biased.

  • Another_Jeremy said:

    @ James

    If you’re sleeping with certain races to be “safer” you should be sleeping with Asian men. They’re the ones who contract the least STDs. I guess your bedroom is about to become a lot more racially diverse?

    I doubt it.

    If you’re saying it’s ok to discriminate against people of particular races because you’re only looking to fuck the men you meet and that you’re merely adhering to the “safest” possible variant of that scenario, then I think you need to take a look at your life.

    Who needs gay bashers when you have men justifying their racism with lifestyle choices as toxic and dysfunctional as these?

  • French guy said:

    I got shocked when I came to the US and the UK and I logged on those websites to read “no asians” and “no blacks”. You will never read anything like this in France. That´s impossible.

  • Matty said:

    Some people just have a preference for certain races. I don’t think it serves people well to state it because it sounds snotty, but I’d rather be up front about what they don’t like so I’m not wasting my time barking up the wrong tree. Some people only want black, some people prefer Asian, some people don’t like this, such and such a race, it’s all based on looks for the most part. I understand it, but I personally wouldn’t put it in my profile because it won’t keep people away for the most part. It would keep me away, but people don’t even read those things half the time.

  • bigboy said:

    WHO CARES WHAT A BUNCH OF RACIST FAGGOTS THINK. AND GO TO HELL YOU AIDS CARRYING FAGS./

  • robert said:

    I am mature heavyset been on adam 4 adam several times never met any one

    I have gone out with black men but I never meet them on personal sights
    I hought I would tryadam4adam one more timme then that would be my last time

    since I meet men off of fee sights

    henry

  • Jim Broome-Blanchard said:

    A very insightful article. The Gay Community is only a microcosm of the rest of society. It seems rather absurd even in this day and age there is prejudice and bigotry within the gay community itself. NO KIDDING???? As a biracial gay male, I can safely say I have just about heard it all, that includes hearing the (N) word and other unfavorable racial references used by other gays. In my opinion (mine only) most individuals on these sites are not really looking for quality relationships. I feel we all have internalized biases. We all know bigotry for the large part is based the lack of understanding and the lack of experience with something different. I dare say some of these have no friends of color, or besides work have very little association there of. Perhaps their view of blacks and others are overtly distorted. Listen to what conservative politicians say about us. These are supposedly educated, well informed people, yet they continue to say some of the most ignorant things on our behalf community. Some of language in these ads are no different. We all have preferences, but do we forget the importance of sensitivity…. Bigotry is a choice….

  • Jim Broome-Blanchard said:

    By the way JASON…. after reading your jaw dropping comments,
    “If IGNORANCE were a BLESSING, you’d be a SAINT”…..

  • jason said:

    BIG FUCKING DEAL. I’m a white male who is only into white males. So sue me. I’m so sick of this political correctness crap.

  • DK said:

    U mad Jason?

    When people say “I’m sick of political correctness” what they mean is “I don’t want to have my selfish, narrow worldview challenged.”

    I’ve learned that what conservatives (and racists) consider political correctness is actually what the rest of us consider thoughtfulness, kindness, and application of the Golden Rule. Just like I tell my Republican friends: “Just because you’re an asshole doesn’t mean I’m politically correct.”

    It costs a dude nothing to reflect on his racial preferences, their origins, their implications, their limitations, etc. Dudes like jason don’t want to do so because they are selfish, rude, and intellectually lazy. Their prerogative, of course, but the rest of us shouldn’t let them pretend like they’re some kind of martyrs against ‘political correctness’ when they are just really angry jerks.

  • WTF said:

    @ James you are a pathetic jerk. Hope now loved one yours comes down with HIV. Oh right…you only deal with white men. Yeah there are no white HIV poz men. Funny because I work for a HIV clinic and most of the men that I see are white and addicted to crystal meth. Yes the black community has a higher percentage of PLWHA/AIDS, however your conclusion is absolutely ragged; and remember, there are liars in our community. Men will lie because of the exclusivity you and others exhibit here.

    I will never be shocked the the ignorance in the gay community. This article has cemented my thoughts about racism within the gay community. White men take for granted that they have the advantage in our society.

    Again I challenge anyone on here to tell an black man face-to-face, “no blacks”. I doubt any of you have the cojones to say anything like that at all. If you do dare to go there…please let me be there.

    “bigboy said: WHO CARES WHAT A BUNCH OF RACIST FAGGOTS THINK. AND GO TO HELL YOU AIDS CARRYING FAGS”

    bigboy: What is your deal. You call others “Racist Faggots” and then say something as stupid as that. Confusing.

  • Jymee Grate said:

    Well I am a white male that prefers black men. Does that make me racist against white? Hell no it doesn’t. Does that mean I don’t want to make friends with white? Hell no it doesn’t. So to think that statement is racist is a little silly, to me anyways. I am white have plenty of white friends but when it comes to “gettin it in” I love the black brothers! It’s all about what turns you on in that moment and if the other race doesn’t do it for you why waste your and someone else’s time just be blunt and honest.

  • WTF said:

    “We all have a right to our preferences. Every single person in the world has the right to have sex with whatever turns them on. Despite our liberty to choose our sexual partners we are obligated as human beings to take into consideration the feelings of our fellow man. For the sake of people’s feelings is it that fucking hard to keep some of our preferences to ourselves?”

    I wanted to use the last paragraph of Mr. Gloff’s article because, although interestingly revealing, the premise of article is about why we, LGBTQ…., treat each other with such little respect. And how this lack of consideration is particularly aimed at African-American men. The article points out the insidousness of racism, and how it through our society.

    Stating one’s preference “bluntly” as the above poster suggested, or otherwie, smacks of an ingrained entitlement that many, not all, white men think rightly theirs. And it should be pointed out, white males, admitted or not, yield the majority of the simple, yet ubiquitous power, still not shared with parity in this country.

    We as an “equal” society have evolved quite a bit from the darker (no pun) days. But we do have further to go. LGBT people have to make that committed effort, take that extra step forward, as we always have, to bring about that parity.

    But we have to start with us first. We need to address the standards by which we as a group of people, who have and still continue to struggle against our oppressors, hold high for the good of all.

    Today is MLK day. We LGBT people consider ourselves part of the civil rights movement. Why not, for those of us who state racial preferences in their profiles, edit those preferences out in solidarity with all of the LGBT people who marched along side Dr. King? Why not?

  • LiberalsAreWhineyandWeak said:

    SO WHAT that guys on Adam4Adam say they aren’t interested in Black Guys! IT’S BECAUSE THEY AREN’T ATTRACTED TO BLACK GUYS!!!!!!!!!!! DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. What, you whiney limp-wristed liberals wanna put simple nature on trial now too????? Maybe we should now be in trouble because we aren’t attracted to WOMEN either????? If you don’t like the damn A4A profile because you think it’s “racist”, then that’s YOUR stupid problem, not the profile’s!!!!!! Just go then to the next profile AND STOP YOUR DAMN LIBERAL COMPLAINING!!!!! GET OVER IT. If you can’t handle REAL life, then go shoot yourself in the head and put yourself out of your mentally ill misery!!!!! And go ahead dumb libs, make a comment to what I said. I already know your comments won’t make any sense whatsoever and won’t be based in reality, and I won’t even be back to read them anyway. Liberalism (and Democrats) IS A MENTAL DISEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks fags now for making straight people hate gays EVEN MORE!!!!

  • BIG BOY said:

    ALL BLACKMEN NEED TO LEAVE THIS RACIST ADAM4ADAM SITE AND LET. THE RACIST MEET EACH OTHER.

  • DK said:

    @LiberalsAreWhineyandWeak

    U mad? Switch to decaf, bro.

  • WTF said:

    @ LiberalsAreWhineyandWeak

    Gee, what can I say?

    Well.. so long… and don’t forget to keep taking your meds.

  • Firebrand said:

    I just read the post by LiberalsAreWhineyandWeak. I then called the state mental hospital and told them I found that patient that escaped last week.

    Right-wing Republicans are really losing it now that Obama’s been re-elected. It’s so sad to watch.

  • DK said:

    I don’t think LiberalsAreWhineyandWeak likes black people too much. Just a hunch.

  • WTF said:

    Yea..if ever I’ve heard a good argument for the protection the 2nd amendment. I think I need a bazooka to protect us weak and whiney liberals from people like LAW&W.

  • eurohawk said:

    All sexy black guys come to Europe!
    The hottest guys will fight for you here!!!

  • Cynical and Southern: I’d hate to be Black and on Adam4Adam | Meeting Your Same Sex Mate said:

    [...] The New Gay » adam4adam Bookmark on Delicious Digg this post Recommend on Facebook share via Reddit Share with Stumblers [...]

  • O….. No coco for you!!! Hmm | said:

    [...] the article Cynical and Southern: I’d hate to be Black and on Adam4Adam  ,Author Jeremy Golf states how gay men on the social dating site Adam4Adam can be outlandishly [...]

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  • X said:

    Valid point. I’ve been on just about every dating website and honestly, the most common “preference” I find is that most want a masculine guy. However, I have seen the race thing, but only a couple times. :/ I certainly agree with you. I still consider it racist indeed despite how passive one tries to put it.

  • wtf said:

    @ X

    I can see your point and agree with you. Perhaps the prevalence of racially preferenced posts have decreased. I wonder how much this discussion has has affected the problem of racism within the gay community. I would think the impact of the artcle itself may have been minimal to the community itself as a whole; however I must have to that I’ve noticed a change in the posts on sex sites. Still see the dregs of those who insist on being on the wrong side of history. To those I say…”Enjoy hating, in the end you’re the ones who have to live with youselves.These comments have been running for just over three years. It’s an incredible exposure of the depth of the problem of racism that we, as a community, refuse to face. These repulsive sentiments are still harbored by way too many.

    Since this article was first published, I have moved to a part of the country that is for lack of a better term, prefer to stay in the past. There are still laws in this area that withhold the right to discriminate, even fire a person for being gay. Yes, in the year 2013, in the “land of the free”, in which the majority of American people favor or have no opinion of marriage equality, there are still people that being gay is an “abomination”. Yet in that same state, Bible Belt, USA, I pass by a club named “Fuzzy Holes”, I can’t imagine what kind of “Fuzzy Holes” are being offered there; can anyone?

    I marvel at the hypocritical base this country slimes through. I’ll take a twist on a quote from one of America’s most beloved daughters, Sarah Palin: “What’s the difference between a real American, and a sincere, honest, thinking American? … The Bible” The former will throw the Bible at you, in the process giving you a heavenly concussion, all in the name of celestial love. I wouldn’t be surprised if the trajectory of that Bible will make contact with one’s noggin from the direction of the “Fuzzy Holes” itself. While the latter would inertcept that Bible in order keep one from being hurt at all, and will work with the hater so that that lipsticked little pig could see that they’re unnecessarily hurting another person while being a completely hypocritical. Such is the state of this country, thankfully most are beginning to see the dangers of following such primitive thinking.

    This thread has evolved in such a way. I’m seeing less and less guys getting on here to defend their right to be openly racist. I don’t care if they’ve gone “underground” and no longer explicitly announe their “preference”, and if they have, well all I have to say about that is, “Happy burrowing”, but remember there are still some watching. I believe in living and let live. But when anyone’s living becomes a threat to mine, and that includes the certainty that I can get on a dating/sex site and not have to put up with another guy’s preferential likes or dislikes, live and let live will be enforced, I will confront you. We can make a difference if we all start to hold these guys accountable. As much as these men complain about having the “right” to bring harm to anyone, whether physically or verbally, we should be as ready to protect and help the evolution of thought to move forward. Accepting the status quo, not protesting and keeping silent will be the downfall of civility.

  • John said:

    Preference or prejudice, what a slippery slope. I’m a 54 gay Latino male. In the short time I have spent on gay online dating sites, I’ve never been approached by any African American. I think it’s primarily due to the fact there aren’t any online. This is a different story when I’m at a bar or night club which I seldom frequent. It sure is a sad state of affairs when dating websites develop catering to a certain niche, things become segregated once more leaving you wondering if life in America has become one big euphemism

  • man's said:

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  • WTF said:

    Many,many more should be reading this. However I doubt those who should, probably don’t read much.

    Since this story ran almost three yrs ago, the controversy continues. To me it’s telling that there is a systemic problem in our community.
    Which represent a sample of our society overall. Some may disagree with that and hold to the simple argument of preference.

    Since the article was first printed, I’ve moved deeper and more west than ever into the south; into an area where in which I rarely see any African-Americans. The occaaional Latinos in the area are migrant workers. The trend here tends to a demand for masculinty. Which makes me wonder as I’ve yet to see any drag queens shasayin’ down main street, yet you’d think the town was festooned in boa feathers! Which leads me to how many are still so repressed.

    So now the argument should be, is “preference”, in this case sexually, influenced by one’s fundemental belief system? I think it is. Is preference learned or a natural inclination?

  • rockman said:

    You’d better develop thick THICK skin if you happen to be a gay blackman who dates outside of his race. It’ll be a constant war on your self-esteem, your self-worth

  • WTF said:

    Alright

  • WTF said:

    So I’ve been wondering how, in the light of the Trayvon Martin verdict and ensuing nationwide discussion on race, and how black and brown men and boys are perceived…I wonder what the men on here, who claim not to be racist while excluding, in particular black men, feel about their preferences? I’m not propsing anything other than that. Has there been any introspection? Can any of you see the insidious nature of racism now? Not suggesting that you go and change your ways, or that you should jump in bed with the closest black man you see, although broadening your sexual horizons may be surprising to you. Nor am I making any parallels with the TM verdict, and sexual preferences (I’m mot suggesting sex or sexual orientation had anything to with the case

  • WTF said:

    cont., from above. my thumbs are to big for these tiny keyboards.

    Anyway. Again, not questioning anything other than if those who have elected to be exclusivie in their profiles, now understand a little more of the experiences black, and brown men encounter on a daily basis, and how insesitive your using “preferences” as some kind of “right”, and not an entitlement, or choice, is hurtful to others? Can you all see how your “preferences” continue to stoke the embers of racism? How, if you took the time to thoughtfully word/edit your profiles, you may actually be part of the solution and not a part of the problem? I detest racism in all its forms. I suggest that we as an oppressed people, and no one will convince me that we as gay people are not still oppressed, need to become that beacon of freedom, and equality we say we are at each Pride march we attend. We should begin to align ourselves with what seems to be a new call for equality…Human equality. This is a broader problem in our community than we’re comfortable discussing. Racism is not going away, however we, individually can make the choice not to be a part of it.

  • Lee said:

    For the most part, online dating is a joke
    Of course there are serious people out there too. But how often are we looking at them rather than those same cute, charming but emotionally screwed up types over and over? I mean let’s face it, someone usually has to be deeply unhappy about themselves to reject an entire group of suitors on a completely superficial and extremely variable feature (unlike gender, for those who want to make comparisons) such as race? No serious relationship seeker would have such values. They would be more open. But therein lies the problem. Too many online are NOT serious, but are looking for instant gratification.. They are not sure of themselves, what they want, or even their sexuality. Regrettably, I experienced that too often. Gay “dating” sites or the gay section of then are rife with Caucasian so-called “curious” or the “bi but married or discreet” men. The visibility of this type has only been increasing. These are men who are probably not only homophobic in their public “straight” life , but racist as well, thoroughly enjoying their privileged existence, at least when they aren’t chasing some taboo fantasy, leading a double life. So I say don’t take the rejections so seriously. May just be a blessing in disguise that that guy was not into you.

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  • No One said:

    People do have their racial preferences for sex, and sometimes those preferences change over the course of a lifetime. The people who have it hardest, for a real relationship anyway, are those that are only attracted to members of a different race than their own. It happens.

    This also made me think of a 20′s guy that I saw posted on craigslist a lot and always put “no dirty old men” in his post looking for sex. That is offensive to anyone over 40. Why not just put “no one over 40″ or “18 to 35 only”? People are often thoughtless idiots.

  • No One said:

    &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&People do have their racial preferences for sex, and sometimes those preferences change over the course of a lifetime. The people who have it hardest, for a real relationship anyway, are those that are only attracted to members of a different race than their own. It happens. This also made me think of a 20′s guy that I saw posted on craigslist a lot and always put “no dirty old men” in his post looking for sex. That is offensive to anyone over 40. Why not just put “no one over 40″ or “18 to 35 only”? People are often thoughtless idiots&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

  • wtf said:

    I’ve come to the conclusion that the LGBTQwhatever is full of jerks, and it doesn’t matter what site one is on. Racial preferences, sexual preferences, age preferences, height/weight preferences, piggy preferences, pnp preferences, Uber masculinity preferences, relationship preferences, class preferences. We’re all full of misconceptions, presumptions, assumptions about who and what we want sexually. From what I see there’s an awful lot sadness in our community. And when we get old we disappear completely. So how is this any different from the rest of America?

    I’ve been on most of these sites. Have been ignored by many. Approached by many. Have been rejected…blocked…and I done the same to others. Now the question in my mind is whether or not questioning any issue in particular, (i.e.) sexual preferences, is worth it as there are so many other issues we carry.

    We, it seems, are far too ready to dismiss each other. We are drowning in self-hatred, and still pander to what is accepted by straight society. We are a bunch of sick puppies. If you don’t believe that..please read this thread.

    I live in a pretty liberal city, yet have found that that city has been inundated by the likes of middle class Americans, whom, I shudder to say, have brought their singly-minded, homogenized attitude to our diverse city. I haven’t lost all hope, but from what I can see we have such a long way to go, I don’t see a unified, fully realized gay community. We will always be fragmented simply because we live in a very sick society. I have traveled, and am now starting to see how the attitudes and practices that we as society are mortified by occurring in developing countries, let’s say, are not that much more developed here. And it seems to be getting worse fueled by the anonymity of the internet. We’re losing our grasp on civility. It should be incumbent on all of us to turn away from stupidity. But then again we’re not in a society that devalues humanity. You guys who believe that being hurtful is an acceptable form of behavior, are really very confused and self loathing. We, the gay community, is in a very sad state.

  • wtf said:

    HEY! IS THIS RAG REALLY CLOSED?!?!?!??!?!?!!!???!

  • Jamie said:

    I think people that see preferences like those read too much into them and are quick to label them as something. Just because a person doesn’t want to date someone of color doesn’t automatically make them racist because it involves physical attraction and it’s the same with those that prefer muscular or athletic body types. If someone isn’t physically attracted to their partner, things most likely won’t work out. It’s how the world works and who are we to tell people what preferences they should have and what they should do with them? There are going to be people who like blacks and those who are chubby and there are going to be people who won’t. In my opinion, it’s better to have your preferences out there because it gets to the point and saves whoever is outside of those preferences time from getting their hopes up and messaging the person only to receive a message back that their not interested. People dating someone that they’re not attracted to is even worse.

    It’s all about how you make of the situation. So instead of getting angry at them, just see it as their loss because there are plenty of other good people out there for the taking, plenty of people who don’t have such narrow preferences.

  • J Broome-Blanchard said:

    Oh the complicated world of gay dating….. Keeping in mind as someone pointed out most of these are hook ups not serious commitment… What I gather racism exist in the gay community… At first you ask how can a community that is so prevalent to bigotry and stereotypes quite easily apparently. The irony is ALL groups within the gay community project bigotry towards each other. There are little subcultures and at times one exhibits a certain disdain for the other. Bears vs Twinks, Darker skin Blacks vs Lighter skin ones, Mature vs Jock, Hairy vs Smooth, Fem vs Butch…. It gets crazier and asinine. The Gay Community is only an microcosm of the rest of society. I find it interesting that one has been known to occasionally sleep with the other, (as long as it’s not made public knowledge)….Perhaps it should be I SECRETLY like what I like….

  • Another_Jeremy said:

    @ Jamie

    I can’t believe that after all the years this post has been up, the same excuses are being utilized to justify this type of behavior. We are attracted to and not attracted to individual people, not entire races comprised of billions of human beings with a multitude of physical and interpersonal characteristics. This is about reserving these judgements for individuals, as is typically the case with every other race. I mean, out of the thousands of men you have seen and encountered how many have you found attractive? A very small percentage. Yet do you feel the need to say I’m not into 25 year old white men who weigh more than 160 pound, have brown hair, and who do not have a particular jaw line and eye color. Sounds stupid doesn’t it? All black men do not look the same and nor do all “chubby,” Asian, “femme” or muscular men.

    The problem is the normalization of what you’re calling preferences and what is in actuality dehumanizing fetishization. What ever happened to getting to know someone and being attracted to an entire person as opposed to isolated features? Granted we’re talking about a site used almost exclusively to find men to fuck (a culture that gay men have largely yet to advance past), but the effects are most certainly felt elsewhere. How often are black men featured in prominent gay publications? What other race than blacks has been unilaterally maligned for their votes on LGBT legislation? You think it’s a coincidence that black gay men are so readily excluded from the LGBT movement and that soooo many white men also find them “unattractive?” You don’t think this is perhaps why even well informed and educated black men such as myself and other men of color who have posted on this and the other thread about gay racism display no interest in participating in the causes of the mainstream LGBT movement? The fact is, when you say I’m not into X and said X includes millions of people you are doing exactly what homophobes do to members of the LGBT community; letting your own prejudices determine which human beings you are open to interacting with.

    What’s also weird to me, is that so few people have challenged the whole hook-up mentality that permeates the gay scene. If a Republican said gay people can’t be married because they just want to have sex, we’d be apoplectic while reading about on it moveon.org, yet so many people here are saying it’s perfectly ok to discriminate with respect to romantic interactions because they’re predicated on sex? It’s really a shame.

    After years of interacting with gay men, I’ve found that no matter how pretty a guy is, white, black, fat or otherwise, what I really want is a guy who is on my level emotionally and intellectually. Looks and sex are great, but there’s definitely a built in obsolescence to the exterior qualities. We’re all going to be rendered “unattractive” but 95% of the population that frequents these type of sites eventually, and I really wonder how shocked some of the white guys are going to be when they realize they’re no longer the peak physically, and have also maintained the emotional depth of a 14 year old. And we wonder why gay men are often so lonely and prone to suicide. Develop some character guys. In time you’re going to realize how immature you sound.

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  • WTF said:

    It’s telling that this article has revved up so many comments over four yeaars, and has outlived the very e rag to which it was submitted. I find that fascinating. It’s clear this is a dep rooted problem within the gay community, or at least those of us who use social media as the most common for socializing, finding sex and/or love.

    I’m not sure, but I think there’s been a shift in ways gay guys are expressing sexual preferences in their ads. Where we would typicallt read “no blacks”, I now notice in its place, “attracted to white, Latino, Middle Eastern”. Not great, but a step in the right direction. A few years ago “middle eastern” was hardly mentioned in most profile ads; now every other ad has that culture firmly in place. Point being, blacks, Asians, and all other undesirable continue to be excluded. Who knows what the next flavor of the month will be.

    The most startling problem I see on these sites is the misuse of race v. ethnicity v. race. There are differences between each category. Race typically refers to the color of skin. Ethnicity refers to how a group of people identify with others within their culture, not necessarily tied to one’s race. For example, one may be black in color, but identify as Latino. So that whole system of categorization is uppifu*ked.

    Why not get rid of it entirely? Is it really necessary to have to say one’s race when the pic (those who share pics in their ads anyway) clearly shows one’s race? The simple answer is we don’t. I submit that we just stop filling out those categories.

    Listen, I understand that being culturally sensitive takes work, and most American feel comfortable within the confines of ignorance, but that needs to change. And nott soon enough.

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  • Rick said:

    I feel that everyone has a preference. Even among white men there is plenty of rejection based on an economic status, weight and age. Unfortunately the ideal image in most American gay communities are buffed white men in their 20s. However these ideal men have a much harder fall from that pedestal once they age and all that attention they used to get fades away.

  • wtf said:

    @Rick Moral of the story: Karma’s a bitch.
    And to your point regarding the gay ideal, totally agree, although don’t bring that point up guys who’ve fallen for the trap… I’m a survivor. Yes there is intra racial/economic/class struggles facing poor middle class whites. The problem there lies in those poor whites perceiving people of color inferior. I lived in the Appalachian country for a while. Living there helped me that the basic cancer of poverty is the culprit that “colors” all other bad “isms” that we all face. The mighty color of money has always been the color that facilitates preferential treatment.

  • Lone Wolf Sullivan said:

    I am a writer, songwriter, and screenwriter. On the internet I have 4 websites, 6 books for sale on amazon, and 4 CDs of my original music. My over 20 free Guides on the internet have millions of readers.

    My most popular guides are sexual, such as “Celebrity Monster Cock Guide” and “Guide to Big Dick Porn Stars”. They have millions of readers.

    I am constantly checking the internet for porn videos and Black dicks RULE the internet! Everybody wants a long thick uncut black dick.

    This may be racist, or it may be a preference. I don’t care. I’ve been on Adam4Adam quite a few times and have never noticed any anti-black racists. However, on Adam4Adam the biggest dicks are on blacks. If you read their profiles you will learn how arrogant and dominant these big dicked blacks are. If you contact them you will learn what assholes these big dicked blacks are.

    Frankly, Jeremy, I think you are very wrong in your assessment of blacks in the gay world. Or maybe you don’t have a big black dick and have had some unpleasant experiences. Statistically, blacks and whites average out to the same dick size in all studies. But one study showed that if a black has an over-sized dick, it could be a monster!

  • Lone Wolf Sullivan said:

    On the internet I have 4 websites, 6 books for sale on amazon, and 4 CDs of my original music. My over 20 free Guides on the internet have millions of readers.

    My most popular guides are sexual, such as “Celebrity Monster Cock Guide” and “Guide to Big Dick Porn Stars”. They have millions of readers. I am constantly checking the internet for porn videos and Black dicks RULE the internet! Everybody wants a long thick uncut black dick.

    This may be racist, or it may be a preference. I don’t care. I’ve been on Adam4Adam quite a few times and have never noticed any anti-black racists. However, on Adam4Adam the biggest dicks are on blacks. If you read their profiles you will learn how arrogant and dominant these big dicked blacks are. If you contact them you will learn what assholes these big dicked blacks are.

    Frankly, Jeremy, I think you are very wrong in your assessment of blacks in the gay world. Or maybe you don’t have a big black dick and have had some unpleasant experiences. Statistically, blacks and whites average out to the same dick size in all studies. But one study showed that if a black has an over-sized dick, it could be a monster!

  • wtf said:

    @Lone Wolf Sullivan

    Perhaps you’ve not seen those ads excluding certain types, that does not, however, make it an absolute. Unfortunately, those profiles still exist. And not just white on black bashing but conversely, as well as intra racially. The fact is that the gay world is a part of a larger world, which has yet to resolve the problem of racial prejudice. To think that the problem is merely boils down to the fact that blacks are high demand because some of us have “monster dicks”, is minimizing the problem of pervasive racism. Are you saying that the real problem is that everyone loves, and really want big black dicks, but that there’s an actual lack of big dick, and that there are arrogant black men with big dicks? I don’t get your point. That’s far from being the problem. I find your conclusion troubling, and indicative of what I call white men who still believe they know what’s good for black men.

    Further, if the problem were the lack of “big black dick”, why exclude all blacks, surely there must be a big, black, giant, tumescent dick gem somewhere within the shorter, pesty, type that apparently don’t cut the mustard in any way.

    Your log I c is flawed and ultimately a part of the problem. You don’t see the problem because you’re a part of it. You’re in the business of exploitation, so to you it’s all the same. Walk in our shoes, you’ll see how insidiously pervasive racism can be, and how it affects us daily. Until then keep your rationalizations.

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  • akbaah said:

    That is so untrue. Bigger guys and fem guys get a bad rapp on Adam. I’ve never had that problem, but I also have a10.5. Maybe it’s just the ,small, black men.

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  • Tyler said:

    Is it sexists that gay men aren’t attracted to women? You can’t control who you’re attracted to. I’m sure there are some ugly people that you could never force yourself to be attracted to, and there are some beautiful women that you could never force yourself to be attracted to, you just don’t have control over that. If someone isn’t attracted to you, that’s just life, nobody should feel pressured into having sex with someone they aren’t into – making people feel bad so they will have sex with you is creepy. It’s not sexists/racist/etc

  • wtf said:

    Tyler … you missed the point entirely. No one is saying that anyone should be forced to do anything sexually against their will. The issue is whether or not stating one’s racial preference in a profile is necessary. Not whether one should be forced to have sex with some person they’re not attracted to. You don’t get it. Exclusion is the issue. And exclusion lies heavily on men of color. Racism is an pervasive problem in the gay community; just as sexism, and agism are. We, gay people, are not immune to the ills of the world. We are far from it. Mainly because it’s not discussed. Frankly, I’ve become pretty disgusted by all the pretenses in our community. Sex sites have become a haven for cowardice. You can have them!

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  • akbaah said:

    i’ve been on A4A for 7 years. everybody on there wants black dick. u r a lier.

  • Wil said:

    @ akbaah

    HA! What version of A4A are you dropping in on?

  • akbaah said:

    This is my adam4adam profile allupnya. I turn down hundreds of white boys daily. Not because their white because they didn’t read just looked at the pic and did or said something that my profile said Not to do.

  • Wil said:

    akbaah..what do you expect if all you do is show your cock? the type of person you attract are looking for just that. it doesn’t matter what your race is. further…your ad is just the like all those white men who exclude us. Sad really. your complaints fall on deaf ears. I don’t support exclusivity at all no matter who behind the dick pic. you’re a part of the problem, and far from the solution. you demand dignity in your profile when you lack it yourself. be on the dl…enjoy it. you’ve got a lot to work through my brother.

  • akbaah said:

    What’s the big deal. My profile says blacks and spanish only, but whem u got a package like mine you can’t keep others away.

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  • DJ said:

    Thats a stupid article …. i seen profiles that say Black Men Only or Latinos and black or latino n whites…. asians, tranny, fems, masc….. u need to stop feeling offensive…. if I’m looking for sex, i only look for white guys, I’m not into blacks…. if ur offended, then get over it, “i wonder how people feel about themselves when they see that”… F- That n stop being so damn sensitive…. u can’t compare looking for a Job with looking for sex or sexual friends online, please get over it n move on

  • U mad DJ? said:

    You sure are angry and worked up over a topic you glibly state that other should get over. I’ve seen red skies and red blades of grass too. That doesn’t mean that the vast majority of the time this guy isn’t blue and the grass is green. White privilege, Jim Crow, and segregation continue to be major problems in the gay community, and in gay media/entertainment which cannot seem to be inclusive when it comes to representations of nonwhite individuals. People are not going to stop criticizing that because it gets your panties in a bunch: get over that.

  • Annoyed and Dissapointed said:

    Every other day i get emails from this thing, where one side is stating that they have the right to be attracted to whoever they are attracted to and that there are people out there that don’t dislike blacks in that way and that people should be free to make that choice, and another side is stating these issues of preference are, from the media to everyday american life, another example of systemic racial bias that pervades us to the point we can’t recognize the influences that shape our “preference”, and that presumably, we have to learn to remove these imbued biases. Arguably, the same as we are asking for straight people to do for us. Both are at the very least valid arguments

    That’s where we are at in the conversation people, One side says “consider the social progression of people everywhere and the other side says we literally have the right not to if we don’t find it necessary and it shouldn’t be imposed on us.****” Lets stop rehashing old arguments. PROGRESS THIS SUBJECT OR SHUT UP. offer solutions (!!!!EITHER OF YOU!!!!!). something other than belittling others because they dared asked you to be reasonable about your “preferences” and/or being one of those making everyone feel guilty for racism. If you are black, understand you’re going to be debating people who dont find you attractive. Quit being upset and personally butt hurt if these people that never would of liked you *gasp* dont like you. AND If you are one of the people who only prefer white, then understand A: you likely haven’t actually “thought” about the circumstance as it hasnt affected you adversely B: you’re opinion IS VERY MUCH tinged with bias. i’m sorry.. you both come from bias backgrounds. And i dont mean “they both are wrong” to discredit any racial-inclusiveness argument by saying its just as bad, i literally mean you both are wrong.

    I think that covers how i’ve felt reading this over the past year or so

    **** there isn’t much in the way of human rights issues that doesn’t basically have this same framework of thought. Like it or not, the argument itself makes everyone look bad.

  • wtf said:

    DJ it seems to me the guys in this thread who miss the point are men like you. Men who are “not into” black men. I detest exclusion of any kind. I don’t think it’s necessary to point out one’s sexual racial “preference”.

    I ask you, as I’ve asked repeatedly on this thread. Would you tell a black male who is chatting you up in some random bar, face to face, that you’re “not into blacks”? I sincerely doubt you would. Why is such insolent behavior totally accepted online?

    Yeah so other guys do it too, so what. Why should either be accepted?

  • wtf said:

    Further DJ. You say you’re “you’re not into black men”. Not only does that statement epitomizes the long standing character of racism within the gay community. But, if you, I would take a honest, and close look at that statement and investigate if it’s possible that you’ve never seen an attractive black man. Not one, among all the millions in this country alone. Not one could possibly be a potential sexual partner. Think about that for a second.

  • Brian said:

    This is ridiculous. If a guy prefers blonds, is he prejudice against brunettes and redheads? If he likes tall men, is he against short guys? Let’s not even get into body type. We like what we like and if someone is online looking for a quick hookup, it’s not prejudice to put what you’re type is. I’m a white guy, that is extremely attracted to dark skinned men and not at all attracted to men with my light coloring. If I’m looking to hookup, why waste anyone’s time if you’re not my type. Is it also wrong to say you’re looking for a top or bottom?

  • DK said:

    @Annoyed and Disappointed — You have no more right to tell anyone to “shut up” vis a vis their handling of this topic than do others have the right to dictate racial preferences or still other have the right to tell others to “get over” the galloping bigtory and lack of inclusiveness int gay ‘community’. You’ve presented a zero sum strawman split-the-difference argument in a transparently lame attempt to present yourself as the only reasonable one in the room. You run off the rails when you presume that those suggesting race preferences are the product of a racist culture also believe “we have to learn to remove these imbued biases”. That’s false. It is entirely possible to believe a person is entitled to his race preferences, and that they are reflective of bigoted conditioning and the “white is right” beauty standard in American culture, which is only magnified in the gay community. It is not either/or.

    @Brian — Comparisons to body type and hair color and sex position are silly in this context because they do not share the divisive and controversial history that race does. Blacks suffered institutionalized discrimination and persecution on racial grounds for several centuries, so obviously discussions regarding racial segregation are going to be more sensitive than one regarding blondes or tops. This should be obvious to anyone older than age 5. Best I can recall, business in this country never hung NO TOPS signs on their doors. And having a “preference” for blondes is not the same thing as writing off and excluding brunettes wholesale as unattractive no matter what. Most who have a “preference” for blondes can recognize an attractive dark-haired guy. Guys who claim NO BLACKS NO ASIANS are not stating a “preference.”

    By your own admission you’re a white male — so it’s not surprising you don’t get it as you benefit daily from the white privilege in the gay community. If you routinely faced the exclusion that racial minorities do every day in the gay community at all levels, then you might not find it ridiculous. People who look like you aren’t relegated to “thug” porn due to skin color. They aren’t subjected to the race quotas in hiring of gay bars and clubs. You have no idea.

  • Brian said:

    @DO

    “you don’t get it as you benefit daily from the white privilege in the gay community”???
    You are delusional and obviously out of touch with reality and what you have construed in your mind to be true. And saying black men are relegated to “thug” porn is preposterous. This is not about racial oppression and service at lunch counters, it’s about what you like the guy that’s fucking you to look like… plain and simple. It’s a preference in this case. Does affirmative action really have to enter into the bedroom? And the five year old comment, only shows your immaturity and close mindedness. THIS IS ABOUT SEXUAL PREFERENCE… PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Btw…there are a ton of black guys that don’t sleep with white guys. It doesn’t personally offend me anymore than a straight guy not finding me attractive.

  • DK said:

    @Brian

    And you’re comment — not to mention your irrational ALL-CAPS anger, why so upset? — continues to show your dismissive cluelessness and ignorance. You are out of touch with the reality of what minorities in the gay community face, and in denial about it. Why the fact of white privilege amongst gays should cause your panties to bunch up to the point that you feel the need to yell online is anybody’s guess.

    Your disingenuous and dishonesty is proven by your refusal to even admit that porn is segregated — something that is obvious. Anyone can go to the websites of the major mainstream gay porn studios — Sean Cody, Bel Ami, Randy Blue — and find this out with a simple Google search. It’s your dishonest denial of the obvious that is preposterous.

    Sex is a big issues, your denial to the contrary notwithstanding. It has nothing to do with affirmative action, and everything to do with inclusiveness vs. segregation and bigotry. I’ve already said that people are entitled to date whomever they want; they are not, however, entitled to their own set of facts, and it is a simple fact that white privilege and lack of inclusion are problems across the board in the gay community — inside and outside of the bedroom.

    Whites sleeping only with whites doesn’t personally offend me either, another childish strawman argument you pulled from your rear end. It’s not about personal offense, it’s about truth vs. fiction. I don’t have to be “personally offended” by one’s sexual choices to admit that the promotion of the “all white v(or white-looking Latino)” race-based standard of beauty that is general to the gay community is both 1) conditioned by the wider culture’s values and 2) belittling to nonwhites. It’s you who has trouble threading this mental needle, not I.

    And again, of course you aren’t offended by the few blacks who challenge the dominant power structure by rejecting that beauty standard — you can still, on balance, have your proverbial pick of the litter because of your white privilege. That is not true of blacks or Asians or non-white Latinos and no amount of delusion and denial on your part is going to alter that fact.

  • Brian said:

    @DO
    Yup, you’re delusional. Did you read the original post? It’s about sexual preference on Adam4Adam. I used all caps, but you seem to be the one with your “panties in a bunch,” to use your terminology, which, btw is offensive and derogatory to gay men. Practice what you preach.

  • DK said:

    And you’re obviously illiterate since the original post touches more than one on racial discrimination and its relative acceptability in other areas, such as the workplace. It also might be news to you that complex discussions often branch out into all kinds of topics — nothing untoward about that.

    There’s nothing wrong either with references to panties unless you think women are generally inferior, which I do not. Since the reference was directed at you — not at “gay men” — you should stop extrapolating out your issues to others. But it is good to know you can be offended, just only when you’re targeted — not “blacks” or “Asians” or “whites” lumped together unfairly.

  • Brian said:

    @DO
    Lol. You’re a riot.

  • Wil said:

    @ Brian et al

    “THIS IS ABOUT SEXUAL PREFERENCE… PLAIN AND SIMPLE” Wrong! You like most unaware, or in denial, white men who enjoy white privilege, just do not get it. The nuanced point of the article is not about “sexual preference” at all; it’s about the insidious nature of racism and how it affects every part of our lives as people of color. Please reread the article carefully, and not in a defensive, emotional manner, but critically. That alone shows that you’re not clear on what we, those aware of the racial divide within the gay community, have to endure on a day to day basis. Writing from experience, on example. I live in a very popular gay community. I grew up in the area and have had the opportunity to continue to live my life here. I have seen the area go from what was a racially inclusive neighborhood to one that is now predominately wealthy and white. I have seen that change within the gay community, one that has thrived within said community as well. I have to say that the change has been a disappointing one. Not only have I seen the rise of the racial/economic divide, but the absolute and utter disdain of the community of people of color who have not been displaced or priced out. In particular gay men of color. You may argue that it’s merely nothing more than a matter of convenience to plainly state sexual preference. May I remind you that the racial history of this country has always been a matter of convenience to those who hold most of the wealth, ergo power. And that that has historically and systematically been white men. I’m sorry that you cannot perceive that the beauty standard in this country weighs heavily on the European side. It has been this way ever since the Mayflower bull dozed it’s way onto an already existing standard of beauty. If you deny this I can only shake my head in disbelief. These are standards that have been drummed into our psyche as a people for as long as I could remember. And I’ve seen how this unacceptable standard has pervaded the minds of people of color. Recall…”good hair v. bad hair”. Not a standard found in any other civilization before European man decided they would take over the world. Again. Way too many in the white USA are unaware of this. Not mention the gay community, in which too many perceive our “freedom” only limited to white males. This “sexual preference” argument is not only lame, but myopic in nature; not to mention severely painful to men of color. What is so difficult to understand? I don’t get it. It simple to see. Pick up any publication and count the amount of black men you see in it. Go to any dating/sex website and see how segregated we are as a community. Read any profile, and see how “white/Caucasian, Latino, Middle Eastern”, has become the new “no blacks allowed”. Sadly, I see this exclusive phrase even among my own Latino, and Asian gay male brothers. If you cannot see said segregation as permeating through community, then I suggest a pair of “eyewear” is in order; and pls not rosy ones. It’s time for the gay community to look within. It’s isn’t enough that we fight for equality to marry or in workplaces, etc…we have to look at how we, as a community, contribute to inequality itself. We are not above such destructive behavior. Let’s be the family we toot to be every Pride.

  • Wil said:

    @ Brian

    I find it interesting that you failed to respond to my post directed at you. Tells wonders. Your silence states you have nothing in defense of your argument. I won’t hold my breath.

  • Brian said:

    Better things to do with my time.
    Obviously you don’t.

  • Wil said:

    @ Brian…It’s funny how you mustered the ability to respond to my criticism for not responding to a topic you decided join. You obviously don’t like it when your nose is put in your own crap. You instead have to resort to insults because you simply do not have a proper response. Just to respond to your supposed retort. I get these notices as you do. So I respond to them accordingly. Simple.

    You know you have no defense, and are too lazy conduct any self examination. Sad..and so typical of gay men who respond to the realities of the gay world for many. Again white privilege to ignore reality.

    It’s never a waste of time to be aware of what the world is beyond one’s own. Sorry you feel so. Your response only shows ignorance and nothing more. Enjoy your day.

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  • Wil said:

    hey here…

    the magazine doesn’t actually exist anymore. they closed down last year. so perhaps that could be the problem you’re having.

  • What? said:

    It’s a sex site. People are just trying to save everybody time. It’s the same as top/bottom/vers. Guys exclaim “no bottoms only.” Is that horribly offensive to men that are strictly bottoms? Black men put “black men only”…I see it quite often. I’m a white man that prefers black men, so I notice. It saves me time if someone says what does it for them sexually on a sex site. I don’t want to waste my or their time if it says they don’t like something that describes me. And what about, “cut only” or “un-cut only”? Is that also an inflammatory and offensive request? It’s a sex site people. Stop comparing it to a job interview or apartment application. It’s just horny men telling other horny men what gets their dick hard! Relax.

  • wtf said:

    @what… it’s sad that you dismiss the fact of racism within the gay community, as we are a integral part of the society at large, and considering recent events.

    It’s not just about what makes someone’s dick hard. You date black men…You should know what we go through.

  • What? said:

    @wtf
    I know there is racism in the world. This is not a racism issue. It is a sexual preference issue. I noticed you did not comment on black men stating they only like sleeping with other black men. Or the relation to it being just like top or bottom. It’s as ludicrous to relate adam4adam sexual preferences to racism as it is gay men to sexism. We like we like, is it sexist toward women that we don’t want to sleep with them?

  • wtf said:

    @what…If you read the article carefully, you’ll understand that the gist of article is about the subtleties of racism. Not just on online sex sites, but more the about the insidious nature of racism.

    Also, please read the many posts by other black men on this thread to understand what we as men of color experience, that our white counterparts do not.

    Yes preference is a valid entity in and of itself, yet begs the question if it need be stated at all. If not time is the issue, and it’s about cutting to the chase, again, excluding anyone should not be the issue. Really, if one’s time is so precious, why waste any of it looking for sex online? I don’t buy the “waste of time” issue, it doesn’t take that much effort to politely tell someone one isn’t interested. I can tell you that doing so is appreciated.

    I don’t understand the preponderance of preference laundry lists. To me it’s more about this type of behavior is a product of the anonymity of being online.

    Two questions:

    Have these men who exclude blacks without exception, never seen an attractive black man? Not one in this vast world we live in, and in all the variety we represent?

    And…

    If in a bar, and a person of color approaches them, would they be as upfront about their racial preference, face-to-face?

    I’ve asked these questions repeatedly of the men who exclude people by race, and none have ever responded. They’re simple enough questions. Yet, I fear, troublesome.

    As to seeing plenty of black men stating their “preference” for other men of color. It is, to me, as egregious as any other unnecessary stated preference.

    So, to me, this is a racial issue. Prejudice usually goes hand in hand with racism. To deny that is not exactly full of awareness of the our history.

    I don’t go on A4A anymore, or for that matter most of the sex sites, because frankly I find that too many guys are just rude overall. I don’t want to deal with that. Looking for sex should not include being a jack ass.

  • What? said:

    @wtf

    I have told MANY men face to face that I’m not really into white guys. So… not sure what your point is on that. You still haven’t answered how is different from top or bottom.

  • Wil said:

    @ what… well good on ya! again I don’t feel the need to do so. Too bad you need to. And when you did, I hope you were kinder than saying “no whites!”.

    As far as this issue being on par with one preferring to be top or bottom, it’s not comparable. But if you want an answer, mine would be that it may be a form of sexism. Again, I don’t bother with such preferences, I’m versatile. It doesn’t pertain to me in the least.

    I do think though that many white men who are attracted to black men, expect us to be tops all the time. Which, I find to be an objectification of, or even a fetishism of black men. Which could also be considered a form of racism.

    So there, that’s my response to your question.

    I really think you miss the point of both the article and about many of the posts on here. You probably can’t see it the way we do as you are not a black man. You simply have had a different experience in life. You have benefited from white privilege whether you’re aware of it or not. Or even want to admit to it. Believe me, if the latter is the case, I find it as repulsive as you.

    Yes, this could be a simple matter of just what makes one dick hard…or it could be a study in how to treat one’s fellow man. Being polite doesn’t take that much of an effort. We should all practice a little more of it. Even if sitting behind a keyboard.

  • What? said:

    Umm… it is also racist to assume everyone white has benefited from it. I find the term “white privilege” offensive. And arguing we may have benefited from it without knowing it is generalizing. Everyone has a different story and you assuming you know what life is like in someone else’s shoes is ignorant and is precisely what you’re telling me I have a problem with when you said I wouldn’t understand because I’m not a black man.

    Also, saying most white guys expect black guys to be tops is a generalized and racist statement. And now you’re saying if you are a white guy that likes black guys it is a form of fetishism?!? Unbelievable! It sounds like you a prejudiced against white men and obviously have some resentments… which is why you say things like “white privilege.” And now you’re trying to tell me my attraction to black men is a fetish? You seem to be the racist here.

  • Wil said:

    @ what

    So I guess Tim Wise’s a racist also:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SIINVfqnxw

    Again… you don’t seem to be able to grasp my point of the subtleties of racism. I’m not accusing you of being a racist. Just stating that it exists in our community. My stating that you don’t know the black experience is factual. You don’t. That is what “white privilege” is about. You don’t have to worry about being followed in stores, suspected of doing wrong at any given moment, of being innately violent, less intelligent etc.. all old arguments yes…but mostly ignored or dismissed.

    As to the fetishism of black men…you could read this: Black Visual Culture: Modernity and Post-Modernity, by Gen Doy. It’s an interesting read. The idea is not as “unbelievable” as you may imagine…”Mandigo” ring any bells. And yes…it’s been my personal experience that many (read: not all) white men do expect me to “top” them. You may not see as we do. Again I suggest you read previous posts submitted by black men on this thread. You’ll see there is a very intelligent take of white fetishism of blacks.

    I’m not going to deny that I may have a biased opinion, but to be truthful, and apparent, many of my conclusions have come from dating, and having had long term relationships with white men. So assumptive as some of my statements read to you, they are based on my experience.

    Also, as to whether or not “white privilege” permeates the mind set of white men in particular… all I can say is that I’ve live and have worked with people (mostly white) in rural parts of the east coast; and I can say without a doubt that even there, white privilege has been witnessed by me. What to say then of a big city in which I live? Where whit privilege is apparent, and takes the form of gentrification. Consider me a racist if you like…I can only go from my experience and those who I’ve spoken to…whites included.

  • DK said:

    ” We like we like, is it sexist toward women that we don’t want to sleep with them?”

    No, because sexual orientation is genetic. You are born that way. Nobody is born preferring one race to another sexually: that is learned behavior from cultural conditioning based on a culture’s standards of beauty. If race preference were genetic, and not conditioning, we would expect them to be uniform across the world, in the same way that sexual orientation is. The distribution of sexual orientation is stable across nations. Race preferences vary wildly from culture to culture.

    European and Australian white thays do not have the racial hangups American white gays do. Of course those racial hangups are related the to the racism you admit exists in the world. It does not mean people who have sexual preferences are racist; but they are a product of a racist culture that devalues blacks sexually in a way that does not happen in European gay culture. Gay minorities are made second-class in gay entertainment and media. Anybody who cannot admit this affects patterns of arousal/reward is just being stubbornly denialist.

    Black people are constantly treated as second-class citizens in American society, across the board. So it is monumentally clueless and dismissively glib for a white man to tell black men to “relax” about anything race-related, when the fact of our race negatively affects us daily in ways that are out of control. Black men will be able to relax about race as soon as white people do, as soon as they stop seeing us as the “other” and reminding us of it every single day.

    Great responses Wil, but we need to stop letting white people off the hook pretending like they don’t know white privilege exists. How many white gay men if they had the choice would rather be born black? Some white gays insist on downplaying their privilege because every person exists in areas of marginalization and privilege. But to pretend that just being born white does not afford a white person access and benefits that blacks don’t simply for being born born black is abject denial. The fact of white privilege is not even controversial, and we should stop pretending like those who want us to believe American society views blacks equally have a point when they obviously do not.

  • What? said:

    “we need to stop letting white people off the hook pretending like they don’t know white privilege exists”!?! Letting themof thehook? !?!? You’re showing your racism and resentment toward white people. Just like you…I did not choose my skin color. I’m not sure why I am on the hook because of my skin. I believe you’re the racist here. That was an extremely racist remark.

  • Wil said:

    @ what

    That was not racist…radical perhaps…opinion certainly, but not racist. I love the way people like you try to turn this race thing on us. Really…that’s such a tired argument it doesn’t merit a response.

    The problem with the argument is that it’s purely defensive. A knee jerk reaction to being confronted with the truth. As DK, and others on this thread have repeatedly said that preference is not an innate characteristic of being human. It, like many other behaviors are learned. Why can’t you make that distinction? It baffles me that it’s only the white men on here who insist on believing that racial preference, is not equal to racism. Baffling, but very telling.

    Listen, you know what’s happening? Black men are finally speaking our truth. This is our experience. It’s one that has been dealt to us for centuries. Perhaps it’s time that we in the gay community start addressing this problem. There is racism in our community. Whether you admit it to yourself or not.

    I won’t talk for DK…but he’s right by saying that we shouldn’t let you all off the hook so easily. It’s a challenge to white gay men…look at your learned bigotry. You can’t see it, it’s not that obvious to you, because it’s just not talked about in our community.

    The interminable knee jerk reaction of calling us racist, or angry black men is evidence of white guilt. No I’m not letting you off the hook either. If you’re willing to discuss this issue, not from a defensive stance, but one that is open to learning a little bit more about us…as fellow human, and accept our experience as real, and valid. Then we can talk.

    This isn’t confrontation is not solely directed at you. It would be interesting to hear from other white men, who are willing to be part of solution and not the problem.

    May I suggest that you discuss this with a black man that you know, intimately or not. Perhaps that would be real for you. I will bet that his experience is not much different from ours. That may be a good start for you, and anyone else up to facing our truth.

  • What? said:

    Your argument doesn’t make sense. I’m attracted to dark skinned men. How is my “racial preference” as you put it, racism? I’m white. Racial preference does not equal racism. And at no point did I say there isn’t racism in the world or in our community. You, for instance have a big resentment for white men. I have not done anything to you or your community to suppress your rights or otherwise. Quite the opposite, so you can stop trying to make me a villain, because of my skin color. I personally, don’t do that you.

  • indeeder said:

    @what
    I’d like to clarify if i may
    first i think wil explained how cultural beliefs and who you are taught to interact with and not interact with does have an influence on preference. i don’t understand why when people construct well reasoned arguments, instead of acknowledging them, the way you would want a straight person to acknowledge the validity of you life, we choose to point out frivolous statements and disregard whole bodies of ideas just to focus on the frivolous statement. then we act as though the ability to do that discredits everything else the person has said.
    also about being a villain. i read what he said, i don’t think he said that. To call you a villain is not understand the problem. and i’m sure wil understands what i’m about t say: white privilege didn’t just happen to black people, it happened to white people as well. rallies about improving worker wages which affect everyone, will always have only mostly white or mostly black. prejudice, privilege, and guilt is why nothing the people ever work to do to fix things ever work. privilege keeps people from seeing themselves truly. its how those depressed columbine shooters who obviously were planning on making bombs were able to fly under the radar. no one thought anything was wrong, nobody suspected it would happen. so you the villain? no, you’re an unwitting victim, a potential participant in the collateral of negative social systems.

  • Wil said:

    @ what…no one is making you the villain. that is not what this discussion is about. You don’t understand the insidious nature of racism. But I’ve never called you a racist. You have hurled that pejorative term at me. I have simply stated many times that you have benefited from white privilege.. whether or not you’ve acknowledged it or not. It’s there..you inherited it. Just as I’ve inherited all the myths that have been circulating about we blacks for a long time.

    all i sense from you is defense and accusations…why so defensive? Nothing has been directed pointedly at you.

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  • DK said:

    @What? Your defensiveness and the chip on your shoulder you have about this discussion, which I suspect extends to any discussion in which the word “race” is mentioned, are causing you to misread my comments. I didn’t say white people shouldn’t be let off the hoook, just because. I said white people *who deny the fact of privilege* shouldn’t be let off the hook for pretending their privilege doesn’t exist. Which is quite different.

    It is one thing to say, as a white man, “Yes, I prefer [insert race here]. Yes, in the gay community I do so from a position of relative power, because white gays are privileged compared to minorities and far less likely to face race-related rejection. No, I will not own charges of racism personally, nor am I willing to give up my race preferences as it’s not that pressing of an issue to me, but yes, I do get that race preferences are conditioned and born out of American cultural ideas about race and arousal, which unfortunately is related to our history of racism.”

    It is quite another to say, “White privilege doesn’t exist and gay minorities face exactly the same dating environment that I do.” Which is obviously not true and could only be stated by someone either deeply dishonest or in deep denial.

    It is possible to argue that race preferences are not as harmful as some claimed without resorting to denialist and dishonest claims like “white privilege is nonexistent in the gay community”. I mean, let’s grow up folks.

  • What? said:

    You’re putting words in my mouth. I’m going to exercise my human privilege and exit this conversation. You’re arguing with an ally.

  • DK said:

    Again, I’m not arguing with anyone. You see it as an “argument” because you are defensive on the subject for reasons that have to do with your feelings about race, but I’m simply explaining my views based on facts. I don’t have to “argue” or separate people into villains and allies to do that. *shrug*

    I didn’t put words in your mouth. You claimed that I claimed you were somehow “on the hook” for your skin color. I explain that I was not talking about people being “on the hook” for their denial of the fact of white privilege, not being “on the hook” simply for being white. Why this causes such consternation and upset in you is anybody’s guess.

  • What? said:

    You said, “It is quite another to say, “White privilege doesn’t exist and gay minorities face exactly the same dating environment that I do.” I neversaid anythinglike that.
    Ps. I love when people feel that using every multisyllabic word in their vocabulary makes them believe they have the stronger argument.

  • wtf said:

    @What

    I would love to have an honest conversation with a white man, in which he does not feel he’s being attacked. We black men have a different experience from white men; that’s just the way it is. The term “white privilege” obviously offends you, but I think it’s because you don’t understand it fully.

    For instance, when was the last time you were followed in a store? I can honestly say that it happened to me just last week. And once last month.

    It may seem not enough times to warrant feeling uncomfortable, but if I take those two incidences, and multiply by X amount of times over the years…yes discomfort is the least of the emotions I’ve felt. Anger, turns out, to be paramount among those.

    I’ve been called an angry black man many times, have been told to accept such suspicion, or analyzed as oversensitive. It’s without exception by a white person. None have walked in my shoes.

    When I’m accused of being an “angry black man”, by a white person, especially if they’re my liberal counterpart; my response is ” Why aren’t you?”

    They’ve never experienced being suspect first, the having to somehow relieve the suspicions created simply from the color of my skin.

    You have the privilege of not having to experience such a situation. Does th a time make it clearer?

    Bottom line is this conversation is about being polite. Being mindful of how even words can hurt.

    Now as to specially racism being a problem in the gay community, another example: I belong to a diverse online group which is attempting to tackle the problem of racism in an open forum.

    In the light of the recent events in Ferguson, MO., we decided that we wanted to align with other liberal/progressive groups that are essentially looking into the problems that we all face in this country.

    I reached out to a few groups, including gay “equality” group, and invited them to join ours. Most were amenable to the idea; yet have not heard one peep from the gay groups. No response at all.

    That’s telling. It’s problemaltic. And a shame the one group of people I was eager to hear from, went mute. Sad. Can you see what we mean? Maybe just a little?

    Oh…I tried to keep the “multisyllabic” words to a minimum. :)

  • indeeder said:

    @wtf
    There does seem to be a strange method of responses, and i do believe that what you are saying is reasonable and at least worth hearing out. but sometimes i wonder, how far people have actually come with prejudice in the straight world. have we “tried” to fix the problem correctly? is all this the best possible outcome. and as i look at this argument, i dont know.

    you must understand: many of my folks come from biased backgrounds, seeing the very thing that they would then mitigate if you said it happened to you. when you talk about someone not trusting you in a store, you’re talking about a lady that gave birth to them. when you mention someone calling you the “N” word, to them its someone they shared a bunkbed with.
    when you talk about this you state reality as if its their reality, that’s the point i’m getting at. its not. its the world they love and miss.they don’t say they cant turn on it, being denialists, because its the only way to maintain their “privilege.” Its not a privilege for them, thats what folks of color call it, its life. what they would say is that they cant turn on it because you’re angry at something that doesn’t exist.

    What if this is true, what would people who really want to see equality and simple f’in decency do then? would we still try to convince people who obviously if they have that bias and are reading these articles, are only on to fight. to not be into black guys and insult anyone who thinks the “preference” is from fucked up origins. forever wtf.. because they can exist in the colored person’s sphere and theirs at the same time.

    I just really agree with you, but its sad to see how much people dont want to talk about it. the anger, the accusations, the bending and wholesale ignoring. whats the point, the entire goal was to smash any idea that prods their world. but unlike straights we have a unique standpoint, one i wish gays would recognize. what we need to do is encourage each other. explaining to people who decided loooong before they met you that you were wrong and you were just whining is a waste of time.

  • Wil said:

    @indeeder

    I get what your saying but several things:

    “you must understand: many of my folks come from biased backgrounds, seeing the very thing that they would then mitigate if you said it happened to you.”

    You must understand that many of my folks are not biased, yet are victims of racism. I’m not going to sugar coat it and call racism being biased. I understand where your folks come from. It does not exonerated them..I’m sure they know the difference between right and wrong. They choose to go with the wrong of it. Any form of racism, no matter what the background of the racist, is unacceptable.

    “when you talk about someone not trusting you in a store, you’re talking about a lady that gave birth to them. when you mention someone calling you the “N” word, to them its someone they shared a bunkbed with.”

    I understand that people who find me suspicious while black have relative whom they love, and who love them. But what about my mother, who hurts when she learns her son, a man she gave birth to, is considered less than human? Is held in suspicion, simply because of the color of his skin. And with that being the case, is also open to violence? What about his siblings who are also of color? They are loved, and love as well. Being called a “nigger” is not a pleasant experience by any stretch of the imagination.

    “because its the only way to maintain their “privilege.” Its not a privilege for them, thats what folks of color call it, its life. what they would say is that they cant turn on it because you’re angry at something that doesn’t exist.”

    Right..they don’t have to think about it, because they are born into white privilege. Yet that “privilege” is not innate. It’s taught. Again…a choice. And as for “..folks of color call it,”, the it, I presume is white privilege, what else would we call it? White advantage? Entitlement? Benefit? No, not really. The term is used by whites also who understand how white privilege has given them an unfair advantage.

    “What if this is true, what would people who really want to see equality and simple f’in decency do then? would we still try to convince people who obviously if they have that bias and are reading these articles, are only on to fight. to not be into black guys and insult anyone who thinks the “preference” is from fucked up origins. forever wtf.. because they can exist in the colored person’s sphere and theirs at the same time.”

    It’s simple…change the mindset and show that they don’t agree with the status quo. It’s not as if their lives are going to change all that drastically. They will be able to enjoy their status by default.

    We are not things to “be into”. We’re not a fad..It is an objectification of our very being. Yes the argument can be said that some guys are “into” blonds, while others prefer darker guys…however, being into one hair color over another is not a good comparison.

    Blonds (and I’m just using “blonds” rhetorically, have never been judged negatively for having fair pigmentation. Not a fair argument at all. And by the way, we’re not called “colored” any more.

    Lastly, I always encourage white, at least the ones who have posted on here, to engage in decent conversation about the possible racism they carry. However I’m often challenged, dismissed. I don’t like attacking people, however, if confronted negatively, I will defend my position, as much as they do theirs.

    I’m glad we’ve come to some sort of equal footing. All I ask is the people investigate. Be curious, and mindful of others. Apparently, that’s very difficult for some.

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  • John McAllison said:

    The same arguments in your piece could be used against Adam4adam itself since this is a site that discriminates against heterosexuals!!!!

  • Jim Broome-Blanchard said:

    As a biracial gay male, I have sort of arrived at an impasse when it comes to racial issues in the gay community, perhaps at every subculture I’ve encountered. Is it naive to think the gay community as a whole should focus on the issues that unite us as opposed to what divides us. I have dated some of everybody. I know what turns me on more than others. I can honestly say I went into EVERY situation with an open mind. My point is like what you like, it’s about freedom of choice, but don’t you DARE throw me into a CATEGORY based on some preconceived IGNORANT notion. Comments I’ve read are disturbing. It’s as if some of you are PROUD to be self proclaimed RACIST. That is NOTHING to be PROUD of……

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  • blacknproud said:

    I don’t understand this essay. It’s definitely not hard for me being on a4a. I love black men of the diaspora. I am not in the least bit interested in white men. I find them physically unattractive and emotionally crippled by hatred and entitlement. Even if I had an interest in white men….trust me, there are enough out there who like black men…some exclusively like black men. There are many marketplaces of desire (to use one author’s phrase) At the marketplace that I frequent, no one gives a damn about white men and their preferences. I can’t tell you how little I care about gay white men and what they do or don’t find desirable

  • blacknproud said:

    The idea of dating a white man is so repulsive to mre on so many levels. And it’s not just that I am not attracted to white guys. They are hateful, emotionally constipated and myopic in their vision and attitudes. Why someone would want to be bothered with these hateful assholes is beyond me. Yeah, I don’t find white men physically attractive….my revulsion is beyond a lack of physical attraction.

  • Jay said:

    Wow!! In The UK it’s the complete opposite. I am a black British guy living in London and I will tell you absolutely that black men are highly desired over here. If I have come across the “No blacks” ad then maybe it’s been a handful in the thousands and thousands of profiles I’ve come across. Personally I think anyone should be able to choose who they want to kiss or have physical(sexual) contact with as opposed to picking friends or employees who won’t be exchanging bodily fluids with you, hence your office analogy is very incorrect. Gay men are prefer to have sex with only men, so do women accuse them of being sexually discriminate? Because there are women who fall in love with gay men and even sexually desire them but they refuse or reject their advances!! Does this mean that they are wrong?? I don’t think so!! I personally is only attracted to black/mixed-race(with black) guys and if you go on 90% of black guys profiles in the UK on A4A you will see that they are only interested in “blacks or mixed”.

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