Inherited Voices
TNG reader Jason brings us this post.
Photo by Ed Jackson
I’ve always found old gays to be endearing, particularly those nothing-to-lose, baby-bald rabble-rousers that you might encounter at a LGBT fundraiser or your local bar on go-go boy night. They’re unaware that they smell slightly of formaldehyde and that their casual flirtations border on delightful absurdity. But beyond the surface, beyond the gleam of their innocuousness, they’re also unaware that they carry a disease that threatens to eradicate our future happiness. It’s a disease that wiped away the soul of their generation and is being passed on to ours…
It’s their life experience.
I speak not of our blatantly single-minded elder brethren who have single-handedly carved the stereotype of what it means to be gay and gray for all to follow; those that debunk the myth that one might actually want to use the steam room for its health benefits; those that endlessly ogle and pine for validation through sex, who attempt to define their lives by the youth they suck from the young. I speak not of these gentlemen, because nothing is gained – or lost – by our generation learning about their lives, lived in shallow reflection.
I speak, rather, of our seemingly well-adjusted elders who might be called mentors – those who aim to pass on the torch of their experience and wisdom. Might is the key word here, for what does a mentor do but give us glad tidings of future holdings? What does a mentor do but provide hope and direction with selfless intent? Scratch below the surface and you find that our community’s would-be mentors, numerous in number, have not healed the story of their past and instead continue to espouse the myth that happiness, monogamy, and commitment are not possible in the gay community. They do so because they’ve lived it.
They watched as their generation died – a horror more unimaginable than words – while fighting familial shame, cultural oppression, ignorance, and a political inequality that successive generations cannot comprehend. They became the practices that they used to cope with their realities, normalizing their compulsions and propagating them because they knew no other way. In essence, they became their sexual rebellion and could not mature past their desire to act out, losing the fruit of their message in the abandon of their practices. And they were scarred by the consequences.
Their original message was one of a diversified world, of queer integration, of shared wholeness. Sexual liberation was the in-your-face means through which this multi-faceted message was delivered, and the world took notice, for a time, but the world moved on, and they could not move with it.
It’s time we revisited our message and our mission, because our community is rapidly going nowhere, propelled into desperation by the worst in us. It’s time we took ownership of our destiny, and decided what our diversified future looks like, for as creative as we are, we have become players in a production whose ending we have already lived, and are bound to repeat. It’s an ending that ultimately, always, sees us unhappy and alone, unable to heal from the wounds with which life has left us. It’s an ending that sees us ostracized from our wholeness, seeking to love one another solely in secrecy, in bathhouses, in parks, in any dark corner which offers the joy of titillation, any corner in which burning light of intimacy cannot shine.
We can’t pretend that we’re doing a good job of nurturing a brighter future. Sample a group of young men on the street and ask them how many among them, if any, grew up with positive images of gay partnership. Then ask these same young men how many assume that a loving partnership is possible for them. I imagine few hands would be raised. Finally, ask how many of these young men have experienced a mentor who wanted to nurture their development and spread to them hope of the future without trying to spread their legs. Still fewer hands, I suspect.
Sure, there are a few elder diamonds who have emerged from the roughness in which they were born to tell the tale of something more deep and more possible than they themselves have known. But mostly, my generation experiences a million reasons to be pulled under by the inherited stories we hear. Inundated by pessimism, we mistake the worst of what we have been for what we will be.
Does our culture honor the choice of a couple to be monogamous as readily as it invites us into the bathhouse? Does our culture espouse the joy of family as readily as we espouse the joy of a white party? When we fail to nurture new images of what it means to be gay in our community, we fail to honor the very spirit on which our community was founded.
And when our diversity is lost, so is our survival.
Let us start to change our course by helping those who have come before us to heal the wounds they have incurred. My generation can honor our elders’ struggles, but we do not have to own their consequences. We can sit with our elders, in compassion, and listen, but we do not have to energize. To do so we must stop denying the benefits of our aging process in an attempt to avoid the fear that we could end up being the story we see. We must stop worshiping our youth as we refuse to mature into our glorious, imperfect adulthood.
Hillary Clinton said it takes a village to raise a family. We have our village – we have fortified the walls of our communities, rallied the strength of our political might, and created cities where we might thrive in relative safety. Now let us re-build the village within, let us expand the parameters of our possibility, let us diversify our image of what it is we can become, allowing all the ability to age into a life of their choosing.
Our community may be going nowhere, but perhaps nowhere is where we must go before we get exhausted from living out our inherited stories, before we finally muster the strength to re-invent what we might yet become.
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AMEN!!
A certain queer blog/website received a request from a mid-western GLBT newsletter to reprint some of our original content. After a few emails, the terms of the agreement were hashed out, and the young blogger whose photo is on the website asked the publisher of the newsletter “Is there anything else you need from us?” He received the following reply:
True story!
Why is it that our forefathers have to sully every interaction with sex? Just because two people are gay, it doesn’t mean that every and any interaction has to be steeped in desire.
Jason is overreacting.
If the sentiment of this essay is to lament the oversexualized nature of older gays’ speech and actions (as Queer Blogger’s comment suggests) then we’ve begun an interesting discussion. It would inevitably tell us more about how the younger generation see them themselves, their common values, and disagreements. [Mid 30s here, and would love to listen in].
The essay goes beyond that, though. Jason has gone past observation and critique to condemnation. He sees sexual liberation simultaneously as an offensive tactic (“the in-your-face means”) to mainstream America and a defensive measure (“normalizing their compulsions and propagating them because they knew no other way”). It reeks of condescension epitomized by the need to cure them (“Let us start to change our course by helping those who have come before us to heal the wounds they have incurred”)
Jason has overreacted, and is replicating the conditions our “forefathers” struggled with – a suffocating definition of what it means to be human; strictures on how, when, and to whom we can love.
If Jason truly sought a diverse culture, he would offer a positive alternative. He would pause to reflect that maybe, just maybe, this other way of seeing the world may have some value; that to embrace diversity is not merely tolerating difference, but encouraging others to live differently so you could learn from and share something else.
I am old enough to have embraced a culture of desire, and enjoyed an intimacy and sense of community he will never understand. I am also fortunate enough to have found a loving, caring, wonderful partner; we had a public commitment ceremony long before it was fashionable. We continue to grow, and learn from loved ones who walk different paths.
Jason ought to take some of his own advice: “let us diversify our image of what it is we can become, allowing all the ability to age into a life of their choosing.”
Bullshit. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.
I suspect that most younger gay people with Jason’s complaints have never honestly attempted to interact with older gay men on any kind of social or intellectual level. I have spent time with dozens and dozens of older gay men who I would count as mentors and friends who have talked to me, shared their past and current lives with me, and served as sterling role models for what gay men of all ages can be. Many of those men are coupled in long-term partnerships, both “open” and “closed” relationships. Some are not. I’ve observed and learned and gained from being around all of them.
With a couple of exceptions, I’ve never been solicited for sex by any of these men, and I can certainly say that I’ve never felt pressured even by those who have.
What a sex-phobic, ageist, fear-mongering column. Please quit the overgeneralized bullshit.
second philip on virtually every point. why is everything always so dire around here? everyone is always so wounded.
While I am sure the feelings expressed were genuine, the substance of the post was a load of crap. I know the young think they know everything, but I have yet to meet a young man who knows what being a midlife queer man is like. You will, if you live long enough, find out for yourself.
You don’t have to reject your elder’s lives, viewpoints and expressions of self just to make your own. And what the hell does this mean:
Why would I want to sit with someone this condescending and full of himself?
As for myself, the reason I rarely bother to “mentor” is because I assume everyone younger than myself assumes I am hitting on them (and, no, admiring your looks,if one does so, isn’t hitting on you, so don’t be so damned vain). I’m looking to date someone whose time on this planet approximates mine, so I don’t have to deal with this kind of “youthful” nonsense.
Jason, YOU ARE AWESOME!!!
AWESOME LINES YOU WROTE:
-”When we fail to nurture new images of what it means to be gay in our community, we fail to honor the very spirit on which our community was founded.”
-”Let us start to change our course by helping those who have come before us to heal the wounds they have incurred.”
-”We must stop worshiping our youth as we refuse to mature into our glorious, imperfect adulthood.”
-”let us expand the parameters of our possibility, let us diversify our image of what it is we can become, allowing all the ability to age into a life of their choosing.’
I totally agree with every word in your post. There is a mentoring gap in our community. You aren’t criticizing anyone, you are pointing out that we need to and want to hear more from the older queers to stood on the front lines and carry the battle scars of our liberation (to the degree it currently exists), and we owe them a debt of gratitude. We can give them a safe place to land, and I think it is fair that we ask not to be hit on in return–not that all of them will hit on younger guys. However, I challenge any gay male to say that it hasn’t happened to them more than they would like. Think community at large and not sub-cultures within the community to whom only a few who are in the know have access.
You are right. There is a generational gap, and, as a result, younger LGBTQ people have had to figure a lot of things out on our own. That isn’t a criticism. It is an acknowledgment that our predecessors might be weary from watching our government give our community the middle finger while their friends died all around them, but they are amazing and deserve our respect because they didn’t just sit by. As they were dying and as their friends were dying they fought to bring recognition to a disease that was disproportionally eradicating us. Their age is an untapped resource. The fact that they survived should be celebrated and revered. They should be the entire gay “pride” parade. It is only as a result of their contributions that we can even pretend the spectacle we put on every year is a legacy befitting their resilience.
I hear your call for community, cohesive, united by values that have evolved and matured, and lead by the men and women who this generation have discarded and ignored, which is probably why they are reluctant to come forward and share the experience and provide the leadership we so desperately need.
I wish I could find a gay, monogamous couple that has been together for 20 or 30 years that hasn’t tried to have sex with my partner and I. I know they are out there, but where? We feel like we have to reinventing the wheel because we don’t have examples to emulate or to call on for advice. There are tons of couples with open relationships, and if that works for them, great. But we’ve made a different choice that I feel is treated as unrealistic. In fact one of our friends referred to us as “gay unicorns.” If someone knows where we can find that type of advice please click on my name, go to my staff page, and email me. In my last column, I wrote that as an African-American, I have an unbroken history into which I can tap for advice and support, but I don’t know where to find it here without having to worry about becoming prey. I think it is unrealistic to deny that that is a factor we deal with, and it is one of the things that has been passed on to the next generation of queers. WE WANT MORE THAN IMAGES OF POSITIVE GAY PARTNERSHIP. WE WANT THE REAL THING!
Once again, you are right. The previous generation has so much more to offer than a youth-obsessed culture. You are ridiculed for being an “ageist,” but that is the nature of our “community” and something you admonish in your post. I don’t understand why you are being called out for saying we should value the elders in our community.
This piece is uplifting. It is positive. It provides a vision of our community that steamrolls over the mediocrity for which we so easily settle. I support you 100% in daring to ask why we don’t dream bigger. Why don’t we allow our expectations for our community to exceed only what we can see in front of us, or behind us in this context?
You’ve started thinking right now about the community you want and the legacy you will leave little queers running around in Osh Kosh and whose parents are telling them they are wrong for kissing other little boys instead of little girls. What voice will they inherit from us?
BRAVO!!!!
I’m as guilty of being dire as anybody; anon, I could hug you.
Ed – your post was much better than the original, and entirely different. I don’t think we were even reading the same blog, LOL.
I think that sadly one of the messages of the older generation that has been lost on Jason is to not be judgemental, as many of them had fallen victim to the judgements of others and as he continues to do so now.
So Jason feels as though he is being “drawn under” by the pessimism of the older generation? Stop associating with them. Don’t let yourself be “drawn under” and forge your own identity. The thing I find most problematic about this post- and there are many- is that it follows the paradigm of the us-versus-them mentality regarding the outside world that still persists within the gay community, young and old. While the older generation was ghettoized beyond their own free will by a society not willing to welcome them into the mainstream, we of the younger generation have much more agency in how we choose to live our lives. Jason’s desire for single unified gay community is anachronistic and no longer viable.
In my experience I have known many committed monogamous gay couples, as well as men who are happy to be single and free agents well into their middle age. Monogamy is not the be-all-and-end-all to one’s life, and casual sex can be fun sometimes.
Sorry, I don’t think it’s possible for me to have a little bit to say on this subject. Jason says the following:
1) “I speak not of our blatantly single-minded elder brethren who have single-handedly carved the stereotype of what it means to be gay and gray for all to follow;”
2)”I speak, rather, of our seemingly well-adjusted elders who might be called mentors – those who aim to pass on the torch of their experience and wisdom.”
(@Kyle, I am cursed with a cheery disposition.)
Where some people see disrespect and judgment, I see frustration, anger maybe, talent, and, most important, Hope. There are a lot of people who have given up and believe that the possibility “… for a single unified gay community is anachronistic and no longer viable.” There is diversity in our community, but there are also strong ties. The strongest are the experiences we have ALL endured in the coming out process, and the strength and victories safeguarded by our community’s elders. When you look at heterosexuals, the boomers are celebrating turning 60. 60 is the new 30, but we say that 30 is old in the gay community. I have a friend who is gorgeous, smart, successful, and depressed because he is single and 33. Why?
Those who forget the past are damned to repeat it. There is an explosion in HIV infection rates and a glorification of bareback porn. Jason is perfectly justified in asking where is our institutional memory? He isn’t faulting anyone, he even says, “[Our elders] watched as their generation died – a horror more unimaginable than words – while fighting familial shame, cultural oppression, ignorance, and a political inequality that successive generations cannot comprehend.” The rest of that paragraph can be fixed by simply stating that a large part of our history as we know it was communicated through a hostile media and romanticizing the period of time before the AIDS epidemic. I understand that Jason’s tone if offensive to some or even many, but I have asked the same question.
One of the things I hope that will come out of this post is that Jason will get an opportunity to meet the people he so desperately seems to want in his life, and the same way elders in the Black community (in my experience) lovingly sat me down and educated me when I got something wrong, they can give him another perspective. My read of his column is that he wants guidance. He sees the greatness of our predecessors, but he also seems to feel let down. Again, in the column I posted on Monday, I wrote, the LGBTQ kids struggle to make it to on of the gay ghetto thinking it will be their salvation only to find a ironic betrayal. Instead of jocks teasing them, we divide them up, stereotype and label them, and sit by while every drop of hope is sucked out of them.
There are two images that are always always in my head. One is my partner as a gay kid being teased and bullied until he had to switch schools. There is a kid right now who has been bullied to the point that he is contemplating suicide. We survive and forget about them. The other is the 1996 Display of the AIDS memorial quilt stretched from the Capitol building down the National Mall to the Washington Monument. In both cases we are either losing or have lost beautiful, talented people, and I am tired of it. If we don’t have a cohesive community that can provide hope for those kids and comfort for the men and women who made is possible for us to have a blog in public and debate these issues, then what the hell good are we? If we are not building on the legacy of strength and hope left by our predecessors and encouraging the passion and mentoring talent like Jason’s what the hell good are we?
So forgive Jason the sin of not being politically correct. He didn’t get all of the word right, but one thing he said that none of his detractors have even touched is, “We can’t pretend that we’re doing a good job of nurturing a brighter future…Inundated by pessimism, we mistake the worst of what we have been for what we will be.”
He is a harbinger of things to come if we do not act now. He is the miner’s canary coughing up the toxic fumes of a community is peril. But he is challenging us to to better, to be better. He is saying that our elders paved the way and we are failing them by not passing on their legacy.
Sorry about the grammar. It was 3AM for goodness’ sake.
Maybe if the whole tone of the post weren’t so condescending, I could have read it more positively. But it comes across as if he is saying, “You know, those older gays live some really fucked up lives, but they couldn’t really help it, since the world they lived in was so fucked up, and we should be nice to them just because we are nice people, but we shouldn’t follow in their footsteps because the world is so much better, and so are we.” Am I wrong to see the arrogance and condescension in the post?
And not to beat a dead horse, but this sentence really sticks in my craw:
First of all, what does he mean by “energize”? Energize what, exactly? The conversation? The lives of the older men? The relationship?
Here’s how the sentence comes across to me: “Older gay men need someone to listen to them, because that’s what all old people need, so we should sit with them and let them blather on, pat their hands and say, “there there,’ but not really take in what they have to say, because it doesn’t really relate to today’s world, and they are all so negative anyway.” Again, I say, why would I want to sit and talk with someone who has that attitude toward me anyway?
I don’t even know where to begin.
Jason and Ed, thank you. I also want to thank everyone else for his or her opinion regardless of my agreement or disagreement with those opinions.
There is a quote that my father tries to live by; PRIORITIES: “a hundred years from now it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or what kind of car I drove…but the world may be different because I was important in the life of a child.”
I myself, try to live with that quote in mind because I know, even if I only make a small difference, I have made a difference. I want to offer others what I have not been offered until most recently. A mentor. I want to offer the guidance that Ed refers to and that I believe Jason is looking for. I have lovingly sat down and educated youth, without judgment, when they got something wrong. I have offered another perspective. The downfall is I am the only one mentoring to the people that I talk with, while they are being “drawn-under” by everyone else, young and old. They do resurface…but not, always, for very long. I try to go in after them, but the current often is to strong for one person working alone. Nonetheless that doesn’t stop me from trying again and again and being there, as an example and mentor, when they do resurface. While in this process, I hope to make a difference, offer another perspective, another option, lead by example and find…this guidance for myself.
I haven’t let myself be “drawn under” and have forged my “own identity.” However I am not sure if you, Nat, are aware of peoples need to fit in, to be a part of some group. For the few, forging ones own identity, at the risk of becoming exiled from the vast majority of the community or accepting a vast number of other consequences, is worth the risk. The benefits to being ones-self, for me, out way the benefits of fitting in, in the long run. But that is not the case for everyone. For those who wish to forge their own identity but lack, courage, conviction, guidance, strength, a group of people to support them along the way, and example to follow, as well as a number of other things, the thought – let alone the act – is to much to bare and they secede from themselves to “fit” in with the others.
This isn’t about age. This is about help, change, the future and the betterment of us, as a community. “I tell you these things so that you don’t have to experience what I experienced and so that you can learn from my mistakes” is what my mother has always told me. Now I ask, where are the lessons from my predecessors? Where are the examples of where they went wrong so I don’t have to make the same mistake? Where are the examples of where they went right so I don’t have to make a mistake at all, or so I can improve on what they did? Where is the wheel so many others and I don’t have to reinvent it? “We can’t pretend that we’re doing a good job of nurturing a brighter future…Inundated by pessimism, we mistake the worst of what we have been for what we will be.”
Go forth and mentor. Make a difference. Share your story, regardless of your age, to help those younger and older than you. Let them know the mistakes you made and the ones you avoided so they don’t have to repeat them. If they hope for something that you deem impossible, I beg of you, don’t suck that hope out of them. Instead help them, “allowing all the ability to age into a life of their choosing.” If you cannot do that for them, I ask you not to try and change what they hope for, but rather direct them to someone or something that may help them in their journey.
@Kyle, I totally understand what you are talking about, and a friend helped to make it even more clear. My perspective is this. I want to get things done. I want the best, the brightest, and the most passionate. I was one of the popular kids growing up, and when we played games, and I was a team captain, I always picked the kids who weren’t seen as cool or whatever, and OUR team always won. The popular kids had everything. They didn’t care. I hope this doesn’t sound arrogant. I try to look for raw talent and optimism in everyone. It’s so easy for people not to care and to focus on the superficial. When I see someone who has good intentions but maybe not the best way of expressing it, I would rather talk to the person and see if we can find consensus than to write them off. I grew up believing everyone has something to offer. As an adult, I’ve learned that not everyone wants to offers something.
I see an opportunity for consensus building here, which leads to community building. I talk about the “Black Experience,” but my family is pretty close knit and suburban. So, ours is more the traditional view, and we don’t leave our young people behind. Ignorance is a luxury of youth, but wisdom is the legacy of the community.
@Jason–FYI, Hillary Clinton wrote a book called “It Takes a Village.” But It takes a village to raise a child is and old African proverb.
I’ve enjoyed the dialogue almost as much as the post; thank you all.
I found Jason’s post to be intentionally couched in provocative terms; soliciting the newer generation with a call-to-arms of sorts. I suspect, although I don’t know so, that the post was designed to illicit the kind of debate and dialogue that is now taking place on this very forum and others just like this. So bravo, Jason, for taking a stand and getting people talking.
Admission #1: the target audience seems to be exactly directed at me, a 30-something professional male. I read the entry and can’t help but imagine the story of the bridge builder who builds a bridge to make the journey easier for those coming after them. What I take away is a gratitude for the bridges built by ‘the old gays’, but also a realization that the world they dreamed about (what lay on the other side of the chasm, if you will) was only that which they could see from the beginning of that journey. My generation, thanks to the bridges in place, has a new view of the possibilities available to us … and must remember that there are still many bridges to build, and legacies to leave.
I don’t get the sense that Jason was passing judgment on anyone (old gays, casual sex, etc) or suggested that there weren’t exceptions to some of the broad generalizations he has made. Rather, I hear him asking me/my generation: what legacy do we want to leave? Are there more options out there than our forefathers envisioned? In our quest for diversity, shouldn’t we put forth diverse examples of successful gay men and women (however you define success)?
I thought this was a great tandem piece to the series done by Ed.
I would like to agree entirely with Philip’s comments. I’m still in my twenties and people younger than me have tried to “tell me how it is” with this mock authority. I’m not even sure what exactly this blog is rambling about or if the author does either. The only messages that seem somewhat clear are: the writer feels we all need to be married and we can’t learn those values from the older generations.
Well … it seems like this is another case of somebody who has done no real research trying to act like a know-it-all. I appreciate the good intentions, but you need to do your research: read the literature, read the history books and learn to respect your elders. It is going to start with being apart of the gay community that doesn’t involve the bar/club scene.
Then, when you’re actually apart of things, you can attmept to influence it.
As an alter kocker, I find all of this rather boring. But what do I know, I should be dead already.
Interesting and provocative. As someone with limited experience (I’m a straight woman) I enjoyed reading the blog and the comments afterwards. I’m saddened to think that young gay men are being hit on by older guys so much and that you feel there is a lack of needed positive monogamous role-models for couples. Is that what everyone wants? Your article supposes it is. Is it tho?? Ok that’s all from me, Rosie :)
Well written. Thought provoking article.
Interesting point”s” of view. Hopefully, articles like this will lead to future in depth discussions.
I think everyone of every age, regardless of their sexual orientations, needs to confront their internalized agism and other isms. Receiving a complement isn’t even close to being violated. The pendulum in the country has swung so far in the direction of self-centeredness, that if anyone whom you deem unattractive gives you a complement, suddenly they are violating you. If the complementer is young and cute, or the complementee somehow finds that person attractive, then it isn’t deemed a violation.
If someone tells you they think you are attractive, regardless of the words they use, say thank you. If you don’t find that person attractive, then say thanks, but I’m not interested. There’s no reason to be insulted or to be mean, just because the complementer isn’t attractive to you. We need to return to being gracious in this culture, regardless of our sexual orientations.
When I go out, I don’t even bother trying to talk to the men I find attractive, for fear they’ll assume I’m violating them somehow. The problem is, with this atmosphere in place, there’s nowhere for the conversation to go.
woah whoa there kyle. in case you haven’t heard, criticisms on tone aren’t acceptable, as tone is impossible to determine on the internet.
i guess my big problem here (apart from the fact that he calls an entire generation soulless, and that my personal experience tells me that the argument is patently false) is the claim that 50+ gays(i’m guessing that’s who he’s talking about) are all pessimistic doomsayers then goes on and on about how beyond redemption they are. “they are slaves to their circumstance! society shunned them! it’s insurmountable! they’re DOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!”
pot. kettle. black.
Thank you all for and interesting and provocative article. I enjoyed the conversation and am excited that when published it elicited so many opinions. I shall continue to subscribe to TNG.
What gay “community”? I see no community. All I see is a bunch of people, defining themselves by their sexual orientation. It’s no more a “community” than – say – a Trekkie convention or a group of redheads. There isn’t a “community”, never has been.
Ach, but what do I know, I’m one of those old queens that needs compassion but not energizing.
Gay or straight each new generation must forge ahead on its own terms, prospects and outlooks. It isn’t new, unigue or even interesting to see a new generation make it’s stand by railing against the previous generation. No one wants to think what they are is a direct link to those that came before them. One thing the author lacks is perspective that only comes with actual life experience. His ability to talk openly about the previous generations of gay men speaks volumes in and of itself. He doesn’t understand it yet and in time, when he and his peers are bald, fat, leering men he will.
The very fact he can talk about gay mentors teaching about monogamy and committed partnerships is a testimony of what the previous generation has left behind. Sure some older men still leer at lost youth, hardly a new phenomenon in gay or straight culture and reflects more on where the author socializes. His comments about older gays carrying a disease is another example of his youth and inexperience. The disease is life, something the author hasn’t actually lived yet.
I wish him well and hope some day in the not so distance future when he’s reading the scribbling nonsense of a much younger generation he realizes how foolish he was in trying to insult those that came before him to feel better about his own lot in life.
@Chris, no one was “trying to insult” anyone. If anything, people are witnessing the frustration of a young man who wants to find the “gay mentors teaching about monogamy and committed partnerships.” He acknowledges that previous generations have made unimaginable sacrifices when he says, “[Our elders] watched as their generation died – a horror more unimaginable than words – while fighting familial shame, cultural oppression, ignorance, and a political inequality that successive generations cannot comprehend.”
You say that Jason lacks the, “perspective that only comes with actual life experience.” That is, in part what I believe he is trying to say. The point he is making, that you and others have validated, is that there are more individuals in our community, such as it is, who are willing to either hit on him or be negative and dismissive than those willing to step up and share that “experience.” He says that the reason some may not want to step forward is because they have made enormous sacrifices and feels we owe them a debt of gratitude when he says, “Let us start to change our course by helping those who have come before us to heal the wounds they have incurred.”
The idea that he is being intentionally disrespectful is betrayed by the following statements”
-”We must stop worshiping our youth as we refuse to mature into our glorious, imperfect adulthood.” Ageist?
-”let us expand the parameters of our possibility, let us diversify our image of what it is we can become, allowing all the ability to age into a life of their choosing.” Even if he doesn’t like the “single-minded” men we refer to as “chicken-hawks,” he defends them. He says they have a right to “age into a life of their choosing.” Why is it such a shock that he talks about older men preying on young people when we have a term for them?
A number of people ironically point to Jason’s youth, inexperience and lack of perspective as the reason for his offensive views. They can recognize he is either young or inexperienced or both, yet few of them see youth as what it is–a period when we are all inexperienced, trying to figure things out on our own and generally feeling lost. We are just now approaching the first generation of queer youth that have options other than the bars to find queer culture, and they have many more options.
I think far more is said by this exchange. Jason writes, “Inundated by pessimism, we mistake the worst of what we have been for what we will be.”
To which you reply, “[Jason] doesn’t understand it yet and in time, when he and his peers are bald, fat, leering men he will.” Pessimism? Worst of what we have been for what we will be?
”When we fail to nurture new images of what it means to be gay in our community, we fail to honor the very spirit on which our community was founded.”-Jason
This is a very interesting conversation… so as a 53 year old gay man, I thought that I would add my 2 cents worth. I personally came out in 1976 at the start of the disco days. I had been taunted and teased my whole life for being “different”, and the first time that I walked into a gay bar I thought that I had died an gone to heaven and that a huge weight had suddenly been lifted off of my shoulders. I was also very naive – being gay wasn’t exactly something that one could openly talk about at the office water cooler or ask your parents for advice and there was no google (or internet!!) – so I did what I thought gay people did, which was find an older daddy figure and move in with them, which is exactly what I did. He was 40 (ancient!!!) and I was 21. That lasted about 4 months until I figured out that probably wasn’t ever going to work no matter what the age! One thing that really caught my attention during those times is that many gay men that I knew (especially those that had been married) always seemed to come out with a BANG! It was like all of the years of oppression and self doubt were suddenly lifted (like I had felt) and they were intoxicated with the new freedom that they felt and many seemed to take this to extremes – even though it was only in a bar. Being open in public was pretty much unheard of and dangerous and bars and baths were pretty much all that there were. I was also very, very luckly to have a loving family that did not disown me when I was outed in 1978 by my then brother-in-law when he came to my home with my nephew to trick-or-treat and I had friends over getting ready to go out in costume (some in drag of course). My father was a police officer, too, so I felt very blessed to not lose his love. I eventually met someone near my age that I fell in love with and we lived together for 13 years in a monogamous relationship. That relationshiop most likely saved my life since it covered the beginning of the HIV age. I lost many many friends during the 80′s. Incidentaly, my mom and aunt still talk to my ex, and we parted ways 16 years ago! During my single years I did the bar scene (and I don’t even drink), the occasional bath scene. Boring. I got hit on by older men at bars and the baths and in public, but I certainly wasn’t offended by it, and now days I’m actually flattered just to get cruised. My current partner and I met at a gay group function and we have been together for 11+ years in a monogamous relationship. We don’t go to bars. We don’t desire to have children (4 legged ones are the exception), we don’t particulary care about getting married legally. We just consider ourselves normal, everyday, hard-working Americans that just happen to be two gay men. I do not like it when society thinks that since we are gay, that we live our lives according to the needs of our dicks, but I have seen less and less of that stereotype as the years go by. We rarely do social scenes of any type any more, so we seldom run into younger gays, but I have noticed that the few that we run into almost always seem to be self-absorbed, narcistic twinks. The days of ‘everyone gets a ribbon!!’ really seem to be coming back to haunt us (sorry to be so harsh, but just watch the tryouts on American Idol and you’ll know exactly what I mean). My questions to the original post writer are – if you were a young woman and an older man “hit” on you, would you be offended? What is it about being gay that you feel the need for a “mentor”? Is being gay really so diffent than being straight (other than the plumbing,so to speak)? If you new how far society has come on gay issue in the years since I came out, you would be out on the street yelling in in excitement and thanking the stars in heaven that you live during the time that you do. Society does not change overnight. I can remember having a huge, huge yelling fight with my grandmother in the late 1960′s over whether or not society would ever come to accept mixed race marriages. She said NEVER! We are all children of the times that we grew up in. Things change slowly. You’ll someday get to the age when you realize that most of your life is probably over, but you’ll never get over the feelings of “could anyone ever love me?”, am I still “attractive?”, “if I were single at this age, would I ever find anyone again to live my life with?”, “where did the last 30 years go?”, and you’ll understand why these thoughts can make some possemistic on top of the decades long ups and downs of gay acceptance that many of us older generation gays have lived through. One does not really need to be part of a specific culture to have those question or feelings. It’s just part of being human. The gay ‘movement’ is a huge societal change, and there will always be pessimists out there, they feed on the negative. Beat a dog often enough, and the dog will come to expect to get beaten (I actually just made that horrible scenario up to try and make a point). Sometimes is can even be good to be pessimistic since when the opposite occurs it is even better! I can tell you that if you had asked me in the 1970′s if we would have states with legal gay marriage in my lifetime, I would have said NEVER! So, lighten up a little. Live your life to the fullest, and never have regrets. And don’t expect society to change over night.
A couple of things occur to me at this juncture in the conversation.
1. Human beings are intellect and passion but they are also bodies, too. None of us are pure intellect (or spirit, if you wish to think of it that way). You dwell on this planet in a body. You are a subject, but you are also an object. This is not bad. It just IS. We all say we want people to see are real selves, our inner beauty, etc., and this is true. But our real selves include our bodies. Therefore, when people stop seeing you, stop noticing your physical self, stop objectifying you and stop “hitting on you,” you will miss it. I guarantee it. That doesn’t mean you don’t want people to see your “inner beauty”, but if and when they see only that, and your body becomes at best unremarkable, believe me, you will miss the objectification, at least on some level. So my humble recommendation is that you appreciate the flattery while you still receive it, be gracious, and simply say no thanks if the other person goes to far. You cannot control who will or won’t find you attractive.
2. Whenever I hear the word “mentoring”, my bullshit monitor goes red. Does anyone even know what we mean by the word? The only place I can think of in the real world where mentoring occurs is either in academia or the workplace. Is your homosexual life only a study? Is it work for you? I offer, again IMHO, an alternate paradigm – just spend time together, without regard to age. Experiential knowledge may be passed on, without any conscious mentoring. Be yourself, choose friends, and let life happen. Forcing it, mentoring, can only lead to posturing and weirdness in my opinion.
Spoken like a true child of today. We need more, I am more special…Please. Wait until you grow up before expounding on a life you only dream of. What a bunch of dribble.
Kyle: I’m glad you say what you do about the mentorship fallacy. I’m actually working on a column (inspired by this lousy post) about people’s misconceptions regarding mentoring.
Absolute nonsense. Not at all the rally-call the author hopes it might be. It is instead a short-sighted and vague complaint spoken from a platform of ignorance and inexperience.
“When we fail to nurture new images of what it means to be gay in our community, we fail to honor the very spirit on which our community was founded. And when our diversity is lost, so is our survival.”
Could it – should it – not also be said: “When we fail to nurture [old] images of what it [meant] to be gay in our community, we fail to honor the very spirit on which our community was founded. And when our diversity is lost, so is our survival.”
When our HISTORY is lost – so is our survival.
I am 30; neither “old” nor “young.” This short and small-minded essay lacks any attempt at a holistic, balanced, and respectful assessment of what it means to be gay, what is has meant to be gay, and what it will mean to be gay across generations and geographies. In an effort to assert (vaguely described) new and valid ways of being, the author would silence other valid realizations of human sexuality and the identities that sexuality informs. The author forgets that the strength, “clarity,” and individuality he is endowed with today were not his by his will alone, rather these were hard won – a confluence of individual struggles and the heritage of those he criticizes.
A third thing occurs to me as well: being in a long-term monogamous relationship isn’t entirely up to an individual, is it? It takes two people to make a relationship. If no one chooses to commit to you, is it your fault? By setting up the “marriage and family” scenario as the only ideal for the LGBT community, it excludes all of those who have yet to, and may never, find a partner. Are they flawed images that you no longer want to look at for fear that they will contaminate your vision of what gay life should be? What if they are happily single? Are they still flawed to you?
I think the “marriage-and-family” crowd in the LGBT community need a heavy dose of humility. And humility is not something I find in the above post.
Nihilism and sophistry, Mr. Kyle, are your basic offerings “against” Jason’s post — which are really not criticisms in the end, but empty questions (“what does the term mentoring mean anyway”), and a philosophy of there are no philosophies. What can we say to that? Mr. Kyle’s “alternate paradigm” is more like a negative space, a “do your own thing”-ism which in the end is no-thing. And this is a not-too-subtle way of begging the questions against Jason’s thesis.
And it is this thesis of Jason’s that no one has yet cogently articulated. All that *has* been articulated is just a collection of the standard nihilistic responses, which amount to straw-maning Jason’s argument (“we’re more than just spirit”; “you will miss the objectification”; “Live your life to the fullest, and never have regrets. And don’t expect society to change over night”, etc., etc.).
As I see it, Jason’s over-all argument contains several solid theses, which, perhaps, could be developed & demonstrated more fully, but which, in the context of the blog framework (where concision reigns supreme), can’t really *be* fully developed. So, let’s try to summarize the points:
(1) Emotional, intellectual and spiritual continuity in time is essential to the vitality of any community; that is, history and a profound awareness of it are absolutely crucial to the health of any community as a whole and to the health of any individual within it. Without a shared, communicated and known history, the members of a community are narrowed down to intellectual, emotional and spiritual cripples.
(2) The core realization of ’60s-era “sexual liberation” was that both identity and sexuality may be used as a means to some end, which end is, in itself, good, healthy and essential to what it means to be a fully realized human being. Problem is, that what was first a sound drive to realize the full potential of humanity, became, in the fullness of time, it’s opposite: an aimless pursuit of pleasure, a philosophy that hardened, rather than opened, “identity” — in other words, “sexual liberation” became a parody of itself. And so we finally got a confusion of means for ends: sex and identity became ends in themselves, rather than means to some other end — the end of self-realization.
(3) Wisdom is a knowledge of the best way(s) of living. The best ways of living involve a deep understanding (possibly tacit) that a human being is more than a sum of pleasure-experiencing bodily parts (and, to speak to Kyle’s worries, more than a dis-embodied intellect); and it is the mark of a wise person that they possess a wide measure of self-discipline and self-awareness. The wise know which ways of being lead down blind alleys, the shadow-corners of listlessness and anxiety; they know this from experience. Most human cultures (communities) are structured in such a way that this knowledge can be communicated to the young and inexperienced, so that they may come to realize, in their own time and own their own terms, what the best life really is. We thus have myth, storytelling, etc. But in particular, the LGBT community lacks the visibility of “wise elders”, those who have surpassed the youthful abandon of “liberation” and have realized the deeper sense of what it means to be human, what it means to have a healthy being-in-the-world (where, that is, sex and sexuality, identity and commonality, individualism and communalism, are all of a piece — a piece of the good life).
In the end, Jason is really raising for us a most important question — one not to be easily evaded with stock condemnations or criticisms: what is the good life, and have we (the LGBT community) a means of seeing it, and a means of having it communicated to us by our wise elders? Or, is our community, like many others today, adrift in an a-historical sea of opposing possibilities, a fractured historical landscape darkened by nihilistic philosophies of anything-you-want-ism or anything-goes-ism? Have we finally confused means with ends because we can no longer clearly see what true ends there really are (or even comprehend what an “end” really is)?
Before we start criticizing Jason’s post, we should have a charitable view of what it is that he has said, or is trying to say. I’ve taken a shot at it here — and I challenge others to do better than I, i.e., to come up with a charitable and not-easily-dismissed reconstruction of Jason’s argument so that a real dialogue can take place, which dialogue, perhaps, would go some way, in itself, to taking up Jason’s implicit challenge to the LGBT community.
I simply think mentoring cannot be forced. I think we would do more harm than good if we were to adopt a forced mentoring paradigm for intergenerational relationships. “Okay, young man, sit down; I’m going to mentor you now.” That’s a set up for bullshit. If you go about your life and make friends, whatever wisdom there is will be spread naturally. Forcing it into a mentoring paradigm is no different from evangelicals telling their folks to get out and spread the gospel. It’s just another way to set up relationships under shaky pretenses and therefore bearing false fruit.
Secondly, I note the author’s litmus test of wise elders is whether or not they are in long-term, committed, monogamous relationships. I offer that such a narrow view of wisdom is damaging. Some have made such relationships work. Some have made good lives for themselves while being single. Some have even successfully made a life out of serial hook-ups. But hyper-romantic youth will have none of those latter images. It’s a relationship or nothing. All the single oldsters are offered is ‘compassion without energizing’. Sad. The world is so much bigger and more complex than that one idea – committed, monogamous relationships – of how wisdom can manifest.
Believing in a larger, more various and inclusive – and therefore less dismissive and insulting – vision of what can be a successful life is hardly nihilism. And passing some young man’s litmus test isn’t necessarily success. Perhaps the dialogue will advance when people think in truly inclusive terms.
oh geez. where to begin?
the article was obviously written by a very bitter, and inexperienced young(ish) gay man.
i found myself re-reading many parts of it in an attempt to actually understand what “point” he is trying to make. and ultimately, i found, there is no point. its very idealistic of him to think that we can change our “community” by forging our own paths, no example given of course, when in reality there are numerous young, successful, openly gay men who have chosen paths that have absolutely nothing to do with the cliches that go along with “being gay” that he writes of.
as for the “older generation”, we should embrace them wholeheartedly, but god forbid you place your hand on their knee…it may send the wrong signal. its condescending to think that we as the young generation of gay men, have somehow got it better because we do not have to live in the closet any longer. on the contrary, there are many who still remain closeted because of bigotry, and we only have it better because of the outlets that we have available to us. think on it young gay men, if we only had one outlet, a gay bar, and no more comfort to be found than in each others arms, would we not take advantage of that?
being in my early 20s, and from rural roots, now living in a big city, and yes, i work in the notorious “bar bar scene”…i have on a nightly basis, young men come up to me and ask me incredulously, “how do you put up with all the attention from all these OLD men??…i couldnt STAND that!” as if its some horrific burden put on me. never mind the fact that i have always been attracted to men far older than myself, never mind my personal preference. do not assume that just because you are young (and maybe possibly mildly attractive) that you do not have to condescend to politeness and respect towards others, no matter what age.
just the fact that young men see themselves as superior and somehow more entitled than someone older, just speaks so loudly of our youth obsessed and completely superficial culture. not even just gay culture, american culture in general.
it is not a pat on the back and a minute of our time smiling and listening to them speak that we owe older generations, we owe them the respect of time. the respect that goes along with recognizing our history, the men that suffered before us, and went through hell, so that we can be openly who we are.
be friendly, and open yourselves to the community that you are apart of. isnt that what a community is about? support? regardless of age and appearance. you might just learn a thing or two. :)
”When we fail to nurture new images of what it means to be gay in our community, we fail to honor the very spirit on which our community was founded.”-Jason
What would have happened if Harvey Milk had been offended when Cleve Jones refused to stop and talk to him and called him old? Instead of being offended, Milk focused on the potential he saw in this impudent, disrespectful kid. He mentored him and Cleve Jones went on to become one of the heroes of the civil rights movement. His contributions are so great that he doesn’t just belong to the LGBTQ community. He belongs to humanity.
The key word in Jason’s sentence is “nurture.” How many dreams have been crushed under the notion that we only owe something to our predecessors and nothing to our young people? This thread is no longer about a young man who misspoke it is now about a failure of vision and an inability to think beyond one’s own hurt feelings. People have accused Jason of being disrespectful, arrogant and bitter, and said that he is emblematic of the “everyone gets a trophy mindset.” But that is garbage. He is trying to look at the big picture, and he seems to be one of the few people in this exchange who genuinely wants introduce ideas that build bridges. But more and more I am seeing that anyone who challenges the one thing over which this community actually bonds, being a victim, is beaten down and ostracized.
He didn’t do it perfectly, but there is both reverence and respect in Jason’s column. Anyone who cannot see that at this point wants to be negative and dire. I pulled the quotes. Others have pointed it out. Some have avoided taking sides but have expressed a desire to see something positive come out of this. Feelings get hurt, and the way we deal with them is by acting like a community and giving each other the benefit of the doubt. Not everyone is out to get everyone else. Not everyone thinks they are better than you. Some people mistake happiness as being judgmental. Yes, I know the difference. Some people do want to see a cohesive LGBTQ community, but they have to fight all of the people who would prefer to make it all about their pain and how offended they are and ignore the fact that there isn’t really a community in the traditional sense.
There is room for both, and Jason says that. There needs to be healing, but if you come to the table with a chip on your shoulder, ready to fight, you’re wasting everyone’s time. We have real adversaries that want to destroy us. Feelings get hurt because someone doesn’t acknowledge a complement, but an army of bigots can go around the country proclaiming God hates Fags! and there’s no problem. Forty states have passed laws denying us our right to marry, but we’re fighting with each other about tone. Either we are going to work with each other on everything, tone and addressing issues other than hurt feelings, or we are going to crash and burn, but it seems like there is a good number of people who are already proficient at being oppressed. The real threat posed by Jason’s column is that he challenges us, as a community, to do more that sit around and wait for something to happen.
Can I just say that, at the age of 46 and having acquired a certain amount of additional avoirdupois over the years, I get hit on more now than I used to be when I was young, thin and relatively pretty. Being an oldster does not mean you become undesirable.
I pine for validation through sex but I haven’t achieved it yet.
Ed, I don’t think you get it. In building community, it is the duty of those with power to be gracious, and to reach out with humility and without judgement. Among LGBT folks, the young are the ones with power. (The older members only have power if they are wealthy.) This post isn’t just imperfect. That is a laughable understatement. It was disrespectful and dismissive. What I’ve read in the comments has not explained this away, but rather reinforced it. When will those with power learn to be humble and gracious?
@Kyle, with all due respect, and I really mean that, when will you learn that you are far more powerful than you think? I’ve mentioned this before. We’ve met, and I found you to be an extremely nice person. You may not remember me, but I remember you. Anyone who doesn’t take advantage of an opportunity to get to know you better is a fool.
I get it. I just don’t agree with your take on it. If you’ve made up your mind. I can’t change it, but I will tell you that you have far more options available to you than you think, and if you are going to reduce Jason’s entire column to what you don’t like about it and ignore the value in it, I would have to say that he is not the only one who can be accused of being dismissive.
You know I could see your statement in the same light that you and others see Jason’s. I could say that you have to think I am stupid because I see something positive in Jason’s column. How arrogant you must be to completely ignore the fact that I have pulled multiple quotes out of Jason’s piece that irrefutably show respect for the older members of our community. I could say that you think you know better than me because you don’t believe that each one of us is powerful, as I have said, but you believe power is in the hands of a merciless few. I could point out that you have to completely ignore the scenario I raised about Harvey Milk mentoring Cleve Jones to hold on to your narrow and exclusive views. I could be offended, but I’m not.
I believe you are a nice person, and your views are colored by your experiences. It is the same courtesy I have extended to Jason. I am exerting my power and choosing the option to view this as an opportunity to learn and to grow. There are hurt feelings and rejection in every nook and cranny of this community.
You have a choice. You can isolate anything positive about Jason’s column and completely ignore it. You can be morally indignant and offended, or you can be angry as hell and take your seat at the table. There is no one else on this site that has your voice and your perspective. You can view the culmination of your life’s experiences as something with value, or you can continue to insist that the people in charge stay in charge but change. The only duty here is to be a part of the change you want to see. Those in power have no duty to to do anything. They have the power, and change could result in them losing it.
The idea that only the young and the rich have power is factually incorrect. Ghandi, Susan B. Anthony, Martin Luther King, Jr., Mother Theresa, Marsh P. Johnson to name a few. We can choose to pick up where they left off, or we can cede all our power and wait for other people to change things for us. I tend to be a little impatient.
that’s right, you’re entitled to your opinion kyle. as long as you realize that ed knows everything, his interpretation is always the right one, and if you disagree he’ll inundate you with long-winded, morally superior rants until he browbeats you into silence/exhaustion.
Ed, I do respect your opinion, and I apologize for not making it clear. (Yes, I remember you, and remember enjoying conversing with you.) As I write comments on this blog, I forget to sprinkle them with “IMHO” and emoticons to let people know I am not some bulging-eyed angry freak.
I cannot speak to other communities – e.g., communities of color. I can’t even speak about the lesbian community, etc., and therefore I was wrong to write “LGBT” in my last comment. For that mistake I apologize. In the homosexual male world, beauty and youth are currency. It’s just the way it is, and I suppose on some level it is natural, since ours is a “culture” based on desire.
Essentially, older gay males have been told by the “culture” to fuck off. IMHO. Now, suddenly we have this post from Jason wondering where his mentors are. Furthermore, he wants specific mentors: men who are in long-term, monogamous, committed relationships. Not only does he want these specific mentors, but he seems to feel entitled to them.
Is his sense of entitlement justified?
How are the older gay men supposed to feel, having been told by the “community” at large to fuck off, upon reading this post?
How are the older single gay men supposed to feel, given the bias of this post toward monogamously coupled people?
I realize that feelings are only part of the issue here. But if you are told to fuck off often enough, then why should you come back into the fold upon hearing the first tepid and unapologetic demand that you return (but only if you are coupled)?
I understand your sense of frustration at the lack of community. I reckon I have felt it at least as long as you have. At the same time, laying down our arms against each other needs to happen on all sides, and the ones who are most in a position of power need to take the first step. Maybe this post is a first step. However, as it is worded, I personally am underwhelmed. :)
Hey Kyle,
Thanks for the clarification, and you don’t have to apologize to me for anything. I think you are right, and the crazy thing is that I think Jason would agree with you to a degree. I am totally guessing. I’ve never spoken to him, but I’d like to at some point.
You know, I went back and read the piece again, and I am totally confused. I cannot see how the opinions on this piece are so polemic. I think Jason is agreeing with you on everything you say you dislike about our community. He says that if we lose our diversity to a cookie-cutter mentality, we lose ourselves. He says that the people who would-be mentors have been drowned out by the perpetuation of the Peter Pan syndrome. He is advocating the same positions you are, and I don’t know how that has managed to get lost. I don’t think that is your fault or that you misunderstood. I just can’t figure out why the responses are so disparate.
Would you do me a favor? Would you show me the part that you believe says he only wants long-term, monogamous mentors? I just don’t see it. I’m not challenging you. I am really interested in your opinion. Maybe I am missing something.
I promise you, if you wait for those in power to take the first step, you will be waiting forever. That is one of the lessons of the Civil Rights Movement that the LGBT community can’t seem to grasp for some reason.
Would you do one other thing for me? If you want to. Shoot me an email at ejacksonindc@thenewgay.net. I am working on something, and I would really like to get your opinion outside of the comment section.
Thanks,
Ed
Hey, Ed.
I may have inferred his desire for mentors from long-term, monogamous relationships from this paragraph (and if I inferred incorrectly, I stand to admit my mistake):
There is no middle ground or third option offered in this paragraph, namely those who have grown older while remaining single or who were coupled but are no longer so, for whatever reason. I can tell you all about the “joy of family” if your vision of family is broad enough to include that of a midlife queer and his cat. Otherwise, I can only dream wistfully along with the others, LOL.
BTW, I tried to e-mail you, but it bounced back. I’m mmmknowledge(at)yahoo(dot)com. Looking forward to hearing from you.
Thanks Kyle,
I can see how you read it that way. I have said that I thought the piece could have been clearer. For me, Jason is speaking in extremes, and the questions are rhetorical. IMHO, what he is saying that there is more value placed on the bath house hook up versus the long-term monogamous relationship. More importance is placed on the White party than the joy of family, however we define it. Then, he says, when we, as a community do not expand our definition of what is celebrated as being the best we have to offer, it is a slap in the face of all the people who sacrificed so that we have the freedom to make more choices than the ones they had. For me, it means that we need to nurture the image of the “midlife queer and his cat” and everyone else for that matter. IMHO, I think he is just saying we need more images that reflect the diversity of our community. Right now, for gay men, we’ve got the rail thin Euro twink, the buff jock, the ubiquitous hipster, and the well-connected, wealthy older gays. If you aren’t one of those guys right now, then like you said earlier, the message is loud and clear, “fuck off.”
My definition of family includes anyone who is willing to be respectful and is dedicated to creating a better community. I do believe we are all one family, and like any family, we fight. We have disagreements, but, if given the space, the time to heal, and made to feel safe, we do love each other. If I am dead wrong about Jason, then you can be a part of our family. To me, that is the core definition of community. If it sounds like touchy-feely, BS, get to know me and find out for yourself.
I will shoot you an email later tonight.
Thanks again, I understand how you could see the comment that way. I just hope that regardless of how any of us see it, those of us who want something more can reach some type of consensus.
Happy Day!
Ed
You are one pretentious mf’er. And there’s so much BS in what you write I can hardly get through it. You are very impressed with yourself. Uh, dude… were you there? No, you were just a kid or not even born yet. So how can you say what it was like? You can’t. So STFU! And the phenomenon you’re trying to talk about is just the simple evolution of aging. It happens to all people straight, gay and everyone else, and it will happen to you too. The world is constantly changing, and subcultures like ours change with it. That’s nothing new. My generation is no different, and neither is yours. So stop trying to be Mr. Expert Phd Sociologist, ’cause ya ain’t Blanche, ya ain’t.
Horrific.
“An ending that ultimately, always, sees us unhappy and alone, unable to heal from the wounds with which life has left us”? “Ostracized from our wholeness?” “Spread to them the hope of the future?” What kind of emo crap is he mainlining?
Role models and mentors aren’t handed out like candy to anyone who’d like some. (Hell, CANDY isn’t even handed out like candy.) They’re hard to find in the straight world, and they’re no less so in ours.
And when they DO exist, why should they be interested, or find nobility, in taking on a languid charity case who believes it’s the moral imperative of the elder generation to take them by the hand (but no other touching! that’s gross!) and lead them to wisdom?
Working off letuc3′s bridge analogy … Jason’s premise appears to be: “The bridge you built isn’t right for me. So it’s your job to build me another one, and this one better be to my liking.” To which I say: Start building your own damn bridge.
Rest assured, there are plenty of longtime couples who have no interest in getting in your pants. You’re probably looking for them in the wrong places. (Or you may be wearing the wrong pants while you’re doing so.) They also could interpret such a contention as being so full of hubris — “It’s HARD being SO HOT and young that we apparently can’t find ANYONE who’ll keep their hands off us!” — that they think the speaker really isn’t worth the effort.
If you’re going to operate under the assumption that young gays have all this power*, then it’s time for them to step up to the responsibility as well. Start making your own hope instead of acting as if someone else owes it to you.
(* But in reality, the only thing that all “young gays” have is youth. And that isn’t a power, it’s a transigent state. Saying that young gays have “all the power” is like asserting that high schoolers start fashion trends.)
Nice article Jason, well written!
I liked one line in Sammamish’s post: “then it’s time for them to step up to the responsibility as well. Start making your own hope instead of acting as if someone else owes it to you.”
Well said. So Jason … tell us, in a follow up post, what your own hope looks like. As I repurpose an ending comment from ejacksonindc, “how are you starting your revolution?”
This brings up a good point: I don’t think anyone is entitled to a “mentor” (or even an older, more experienced person to hang around with). These relationships must be sought out and cultivated.
As with any human relationships, from your siblings, to your medical providers, to your lovers, to your friends, old, young and in between, no one is made to order. The world is not your Amazon®. You can’t just put in an order for a “mentor” and have one pop out, and you most certainly cannot approach the world with a preset idea of who and what that person should be. It may well be you will never find your mentor (particularly if you put too many conditions on the universe for fulfilling that role). It may well be the leering old troll is your only available mentor – or even your best possible mentor. Leering old trolls are human beings, too, and the leering old troll persona may actually be a mask for something much deeper and more beautiful than your experiences would allow you to believe.
The universe is under no obligation to fulfill your mentoring needs, particularly if you are only sitting around and vocalizing them. If you seek out the older men, maybe – if they are gracious enough, forgiving enough, and compassionate enough – they will agree to spend time with your. Might I also suggest that an humble attitude, an open-mindedness, and an ability to see past exteriors would be helpful in finding and befriending older folks.
So Kyle, to follow up on that – where are you supposed to develop those relationships/look for mentors? Does our community provide good venues for these generational bonds of friendship to form?
I can’t say that I lack mentors in my life; in business, in the (larger) community, in my faith, and in relationships I have plenty of wonderful people who have provided great examples. However, I can’t say I have any really good gay mentors.
Maybe the issue isn’t a lack of mentors/mentees, but connecting up the two?
letuc3 – Now that is a good question. I would follow it with, what safe spaces have been provided for the older to socialize with the younger? Who’s duty is it to provide those spaces?
Since I admit I am biased in favor of older men – or, more specifically, midlife men – and their experiences in gay life, how do we let these men know they are welcome, and won’t be despised for their age?
Hi Jason,
I understand and agree with most of what you are saying but like someone before me, don’t quite know what you mean by energise.
In saying that, your essay outlines a historical complaint of mine and lots of my friends. Not to say that we are not pro people doing what they want, but, really I always wanted to say to them: is that it?
Hopefully not.
“…baby-bald rabble-rousers…smell slightly of formaldehyde…delightful absurdity…gleam of their innocuousness…they carry a disease that threatens to eradicate our future happiness…could not mature past their desire to act out”
Wow. This post is really offensive.
I am astounded TNG published this.
Imagine TNG publishing a post painting all blacks or all women in equally simplistic terms: as thugs and whores. I guess all gay men over 40 are all morally corrupt predators and diseased pariahs.
Hey, TNG: what the fuck?
I don’t have time to respond right now but rest assured it’s coming.
im 22 and find this shit ageist and offensive. obviously you havent met, or bothered to speak with, many people over 25. The author acts like there are no well-adjusted gays over that age or something, and also really moralises about sexual behaviour that when consensual and protected is completely benign. I don’t understand where this is coming from! This sounds like a diatribe from 20 years ago or something (oh wait, they were actually concerned about substantive shit, like america’s failure to deal with aids), where do you live that most of the men you know are like this?? The real pessimist here is the author of this post, who sees nothing but decay, depravity, and hopelessness whereas reality, in my experience, is very different!
These paragraphs were quite oddly worded, to my way of thinking:
“…..Essentially, older gay males have been told by the “culture” to fuck off. IMHO. Now, suddenly we have this post from Jason wondering where his mentors are. Furthermore, he wants specific mentors: men who are in long-term, monogamous, committed relationships. Not only does he want these specific mentors, but he seems to feel entitled to them.
Is his sense of entitlement justified?
How are the older gay men supposed to feel, having been told by the “community” at large to fuck off, upon reading this post?
How are the older single gay men supposed to feel, given the bias of this post toward monogamously coupled people?
I realize that feelings are only part of the issue here. But if you are told to fuck off often enough, then why should you come back into the fold upon hearing the first tepid and unapologetic demand that you return (but only if you are coupled)?…..”
Granted, I don’t know anyone here, and this is the first time I have ever seen this website. That stated, I want to say that – as a 54 year-old – I did not find the original article offensive to my age group, nor does it appear that it was meant to be taken that way, in any manner of speaking. Rather, I felt honored by it, as a younger man may seek me out, to hear of my experiences, even if it was only to make sure he did not repeat my mistakes in judgment. Really, gentlemen, I do believe things have become a bit more than just slightly overblown with assumptions. Ought you not ask the author what he meant, as opposed to speculation and presumptions?
Sometimes, people actually DO mean what they say and/or write. That all of the posts before the one I quoted from seem to be contrary to the one previous, for the most part, and only one seems to be agreeing with the other poster, again for the most part, demonstrates a clear message that what is being written is “from the hip,” meaning a knee-jerk or instantaneous reaction to others opinions. While I can speculate ENTIRELY what the author meant, and there is no way to discern his meaning without the inflection of voice [as in face-to-face conversation], I would be mightily presumptious to say he did not say what he did without some misunderstanding of what the role of an elder could offer him, as most don’t truly “conceive” of that, totally, in today’s society, as most men MY age did not grow up under the tutelage of a mentor, and most men in the author’s suspected age group would probably not have been around that type of mentoring either, dare I say probably never even having heard of such, or at least not most men in their 20′s and 30′s. Frankly, I would have given my right arm to have an older man in that role in my life, as my Dad’s role with me was “sketchy,” at best, and either “non-existent” or “combative” at worst. What I believe the young man was asking for was a few guideposts erected on the highway of life. Plain and simple.
Maybe, just maybe, he was being respectful as he seemed to me to be. I sincerely doubt it was disrespectful, as some have hinted at, or outright stated, herein. Again, I did not take offense at that, as a 50-something, and was QUITE surprised to read that some did take it as disrespectful, quite frankly! And, while I may not have a long-term committed relationship behind me, I know from my experiences with other men, yes, even those 20- and 30-somethings, that I do have some “wisdom” to offer, and have been sought out by a few.
There are too many contradictory streams of thought and conflicting ideas in this piece to make sense.
And I really marvel at the fact that someone that I believe to be about my age would use such antiquated and stilted language.
Look, Mary, Gay Liberation taught us one thing above all else: be yourself.
And, Blanche, that’s what Gays have always been. In and out of the closet we have defied the harrowing winds of heterosexist oppression to BE OURSELVES.
The interesting, but hardly unusual, fact is that in being ourselves we have discovered over the CENTURIES that Gays everywhere are more alike than they are dissimilar. Both of those tenets, being our Gay selves and our discovery of our shared similarities regardless of race, region or culture have nurtured our fight for freedom.
And that, Dorothy, is the freedom that FRIGHTENS!
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Speaking as a relatively young gay voice (just turned 21,) I have to say that the thoughts discussed here have crossed my mind a lot.
Now, granted, I used to be a PNP boy, so I probably haven’t been around the best subsection of gay men to judge from, but the gay community often feels so predatory. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve thought, “Man, I just wish I were a lesbian.” I’ve seen all kinds of examples of loving young lesbian couples, and older lesbian women who empower young lesbian girls (and don’t constantly attempt to seduce them.) I’ve only ever met one older gay man that I was certain truly cared about me and wasn’t sexually motivated, and that was a friend of my mother’s. I feel such a disconnect with what I perceive to be the attitude of a lot of gay men. I love the idea of commitment, of a slow and steady building relationship, of old-fashioned romance. And it seems like there’s this attitude of having all the sex you can until you’re in your 40s or 50s and MAYBE then consider having a relationship & a family. It seems so bleak to me that I’d have to wait until then.
I don’t know, I’m rambling on here… hopefully now that I’m a new, healthier me I’ll continue to draw other healthy people into my life that want the same things that I do.
So what exactly is the point of this essay? The writer should be reminded that the very existence of a website such as thenewgay.net is in large parts thanks to a group of pissed-off drag queens commiserating after the death of an idol at a bar.
This generation has been painted with a rather broad brush by the writer as: baby-bald rabble-rousers…smell slightly of formaldehyde…delightful absurdity…gleam of their innocuousness…they carry a disease that threatens to eradicate our future happiness…could not mature past their desire to act out, etc.
We hate most what we fear in ourselves. As such, I see a very dark future for this, uhm, young man.
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