My brother and I are g0y, not gay, and there IS a BIG difference. My bro has a partner whom is from the Caribbean. The discrimination and ugly comments they have to deal with from the “gay community” have to be witnessed to be believed. Despite being an Oxford educated, incredibly charming and intelligent fellow, his stories of rejection and downright hostility are alarming. Coupled with the not too many past the door, gay club policy, I balk when I read the posts of the above.

Equally I now find the downright hostility towards g0y men and g0y culture from the gays as repugnant as their racist attitudes. A word of advise to all g0y men. If gay men want to indulge in a practice that is filthy, YES IT IS AS NO AMOUNT OF DOUCHING CAN EVER CLEAN THE ANAL TRACK OF FAECES AND BACTERIA, and here I speak as a doctor; then let them get on with it. Know that you will be free of disease, demeaning role play and mind games, but will experience true respect, friendship and brotherhood, in short just enjoy clean, safe and satisfying lives. And as for those gay detractors I can tell you this. I love men deeply and respectfully more than any of you could ever imagine and I’m not ashamed of it. My friends and colleagues know this so I’m not hiding anything. Why would I as I don’t indulge in any practice that I would be ashamed of, so your assertions that g0y men are just ashamed of being gay is ridiculous. To make the point clear I’ll simply say that the smell and sight of faeces during love making for some is sickening, nothing more, nothing less. Respect, love, health for all men = g0y.

So some guys want to single out stereotypical acting gay men as undesirable. So what? How is that any different than saying I’m not attracted to blacks, Asians, fats or fems? Should websites tailored to whites be called Ihatedirtyniggers.com? If it was about race many fo these same men would say it’s just a “preference.” It sounds like you boys can dish it out but you can’t take it.

And anal sex, when done right, is friggin fantastic. Why would you want to deprive yourself of any form of intimacy?

I think the defination of a Goy is: “A Gay Guy who can’t make stright friends.”

It’s all a bunch of hooey. Let’s divide even MORE so that we can be separated by the forces that all wants us dead: Gay or Goy!

I love the justification by Patrick about how many Goys (I can’t even type it without shuddering) are married with “Families.”

This whole “Movement” is just another (weak) cover for self-haters who are too weak or stupid to just be themselves.

I love the internet: it takes separation to a NEW level by enabling these self-haters to hang with each other and convince themselves that their new “Movement” is a real thing.

For now, I’ll just try and forget that these people even exist: as a gay man, they don’t “Agree” with who I am (and actually think they’re BETTER than the average Gay), so sorry, I’m not about to support your “Goyness.”

A-Goy-Ing.

The New Man in Town states:

“G0ys are not trying to get in married men’s pants. We’re trying to let married men know that there same sex desires do not force them into a dichotomous either-or position… that they can find other married men with whom they share a deep friendship and intimacy that may or may not lead to some sexual intimacy, ideally with honesty.”

I know that I am late in perusing this blog, but, one of the things about G0Ys is the above sentence. How can you even THINK of being with another man let alone a married one and state that it is “ideally with HONESTY!!!???”
WHAT about the WOMEN you are with!!!? Does SHE not DESERVE some honesty also?
G0Y is a cover [written "closet"]for guys who are not comfortable in their own skin and feel as if they can get married and have a little on the side. Gay is being TRUE to yourself and HONEST with OTHERS in your life. Plain and simple. I do not participate in the anal/drag/etc, etc but, G0Y is way too out of this world for me to even wonder about. I will not argue with anyone about how they feel or how they act. All I know is that gay is gay, str8 is str8 and anything in between is OK with two consenting adults as long as no one else has taken their vows. PLAIN AND SIMPLE! I am NOT G0Y, I am not “gay” as they think we all are, I am a human being and I live my life with the respect of being so. By the way, “The new man in town” sounds to me like the G0Ys Grand Poobah VEH. Their almighty >sicwink-wink<

ROFLMAO!!!!

“the “hey bro” frat-boy tone of it all. … I know these cues are supposed to be read as “straight acting” but honestly, I’ve never in my life met a straight guy who talked that way. And if I ever did I would immediately suspect he was a fag.”

“more sinister aspect, is the blatant misogyny. I wouldn’t expect women to be discussed very much on a site encouraging guys to rub their dicks together. … Fine in their place, and they certainly serve a purpose, but you know…lesser. That old story.”

“I could go on, but I don’t want get all g0yishly longwinded. … If g0y.org is any indication, the movement may not be welcoming to the “fairer” among us, but is very windbag friendly.”

Alfred Ricco
awricco@juno.com

The Yahoo sites. I joined a few once to try to find out more, I was curious what these g0ys talk about. There were absolutely no messages EVER posted on any of these sites other than the moderators rantings. I was curious what form of relationship the g0ys found themselves in. How they came to such drastic opinions about anal sex. I really wanted to get to ask some questions but the yahoo sites were very one way , which I suspect is typical of the g0ys .

My impression is that this is a very anti-gay group that oddly enough is aimed at gay men. It has its roots in the religious right and the sites are rife with very hateful language. I have also seen one site which professes that age of consent should be 13!!!! This based on some biblical nonsense. These people are unstable!

That feeling was short lived. There really did seem to be a preocuppation with femininity and being gay. I don’t specifically remember feeling attacked personally, although I did get a self-loathing-by-association vibe coming from what I was reading. It seemed like self-definition through degrading others.

I get *not* feeling affinity for gay culture. Even disdain for large parts of it. I really do. I was never into it. I happen to have some gay friends but I’ve never looked for gay friends because, quite frankly, I don’t give a damn who you have sex with unless I’m having sex with you, and then it’s just me and you anyway. It doesn’t burn when I urinate and I like it that way, thank you very much. I’ve had sex with four guys in 10 years (I’m 27), three of them having been boyfriends and the other a good friend. I was with one of them for six years. For me, sex is something that happens with a person I have feelings for. I, myself, would feel cheap picking someone up for sex. Maybe I have hang-ups, but there it is. I don’t like clubs (gay, straight or otherwise) because of the attitude you often find in them and because lots of people I know who frequent clubs (gay, straight or otherwise) are lecherous. I don’t like hyper-feminine/masculine guys because I think they’re annoying and artificial… but the same is true for the lady-folk. I think there’s profound superficiality that exist to a gross degree in the most visible parts of gay culture. And so on, blah blah blah.

That said, I’m gay. Like it or not, gay has come to mean homosexual. I don’t like the stereotypes that come with it, but stereotypes have some basis in fact, and I still say ‘I’m gay. In that sense, I guess I do take it up the ass. But I identify as gay for a reason. I have friends who have been beaten within inches of their lives. Thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster, everyone is still alive, but they were luckier than other people have been. I was called a faggot before I ever admitted I was gay to myself, let alone even considered acting on it. I’ve known people who were driven from their homes for not being (and I loathe using language like this, but it fits) hetero-normative. I don’t think shit like that will EVER come close to stopping until the world at large can connect to gay people, and, for that reason, I tell people I’m gay.

I don’t identify with gay culture but I do feel solidarity will be productive in the long run. If g0ys are not sexually active with other guys, then great, I get it. It’s the g0ys who bugger their brothers that make me scratch my head. A label is a label, and what better way to dispel a label than to adopt it and then blow it to pieces?

As a bit of an aside, I think the only reason there seems to be more “deviant” sexual behavior amongst gay men that straight men is that men are, generally speaking, less sexually inhibited. When you take women, who are (for all appearances) generally the more sexually conservation half (or third or whatever) of an equation, things *can* get… interesting! “Deviance” is not the sole domain of gays, is what I’m trying to say.

Eyrev
eyrev.cbcr@gmail.com

humans in general are prone to dispersing themselves into ever-more-exclusive categories. surely at some point there will be new denominations:

the g^y, who likes to give head but doesn’t kiss – g0ys are such fudge packers.

…then the g&y, who likes to give head, doesn’t kiss and doesn’t tenderly touch – g^ys are such sissy fags.

……then the g*y, who likes only to give hand jobs, doesn’t give head, doesn’t kiss and doesn’t tenderly touch – g&ys are such bitches.

seriously.

wish people stopped being so afraid of themselves and just accept the simplest fact: we are all human, and we are each in our own category. sexuality is such a broad term that mostly everything goes.

every category establishes stereotypes, which can be funny as hell when regarded as simply means of promoting humor through diversity, and dangerous as hell when they instigate to ridicule and violence. wish more people would just be.

I’m really curious, Dev. Where did you get that 62%? Because according to Sexual Behavior in the Human Male by Kinsey and his colleagues, 50% of (white, by the way) males are consciously erotically attracted to another man at least once between the ages of 16 and 55. That means, whether they act on that attraction or not. 37% have sexual relations to orgasm with another man at least once between the ages of 16 and 55. And so on, down to the 4% who are exclusively homosexual in their sexual outlet throughout their lives. But 50% are exclusively HETEROsexual throughout their lives. That does not describe “that sexual desire for most people is somewhere on a continuum between extreme homosexuality on one end and extreme heterosexuality on the other.” Most people, according to Kinsey, are monosexual throughout their lives, though the number who are nominally bisexual is fairly large (46% of males).

It’s misleading to speak of “extreme heterosexuality” or “extreme homosexuality” in this connection. The fact that you can map sexual experience on a line, as Kinsey did, doesn’t mean that individuals mapped at either end of the line are “extreme.” Not that there’s anything wrong with being extreme, but I think you’re being careless with language. (One could map experience with anal intercourse the same way, according to number of times you did it, which would make people who’ve never had anal sex as “extreme” as those who’ve had a lot of it.

I’m a gay man who has tried anal sex, doesn’t find it degrading, but doesn’t really enjoy it, so I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve done it in a long life. It’s not part of my sexual repertoire. But hugging, kissing, holding hands, sharing a bed, and so on are as much part of my sexual repertoire as direct genital stimulation. I agree that some gay men restrict themselves in the way they view sex, for example by focusing solely on genital contact, but evidently so do g0ys — just in different areas.

By the way, there is nothing especially new about what you’re describing. A few years ago on soc.motss, there was a little dust-up when some guy posted the same kind of ideas, with links to another site. I’d recommend Didier Eribon’s Insult and the Making of the Gay Self, which might give you some historical perspective. A number of our prominent forefathers considered themselves to be inverts or Uranians, but were horrified (or said they were) by the idea of penetration and never did it. Well, fine; people shouldn’t do what they don’t want to do. But they needn’t vilify the practices of others, which you’ve been doing here.

I agree with the point one of you made at some point, that young guys sorting out their sexuality should learn and know that they don’t have to do anal sex or any other kind of sex to be gay. But you know, a stress on anal sex is not really a gay thing: straight guys are obsessed with the butt and with butt-sex, which is why so much of their humor revolves around it. And humor is often a safety valve for anxiety, which is especially obvious when boys are joking about buttsex, about being screwed and being fucked as metaphors for being degraded or humiliated. There was an interesting post at Punkassblog recently about this. And straight guys also need to think about their own obsession with penetrating females.

As far as I can tell, the uneasiness of straight men with male-to-male affection has nothing to do with gays or with castrating women who try to make you get in touch with your feelings. It has to do with the way men construct masculinity by calling each other fags, with the meaning of “fags” poorly defined so as to create anxiety — a guy can never be sure that he isn’t a fag — and to structure dominance relationships in groups of males. That’s a boy’s game, and I’m not sure what can be done about it, but it means that boys are going to have to get rid of homophobia, and as long as you try to distance yourself from gays in the ways I’m seeing here, you haven’t gotten rid of it. During the Vietnam war it was often reported that American soldiers went nuts at the sight of Vietnamese soldiers (male of course) holding hands with each other in public (considered normal affection in Vietnam), which they believed meant the Vietnamese must be queers. It’s highly unlikely that many of our boys had ever seen two queers holding hands, so this reaction was solely a projection of their own anxieties. As is most homophobia.

(Maybe your 62% comes from the number of boys who have preadolescent sex play with other boys? Playing Doctor is fun, but it’s not sex and Kinsey didn’t include it in his scale.)