Non-Gay Christian Men Who Just Happen to Blow Other Dudes
TNG reader and movie reviewer Adam Isn’t Here submitted the following post about an exciting new way to internalize homophobia!
I like to think of myself as pretty hip. I do a lot of reading, print and internet, and I’m generally up on the trends even if I’m not involved in them myself. So how the hell did this whole “g0y” thing pass me by until now? The way I came about it is particularly embarrassing too: I was reading personal ads on Craigslist. Ugh. I read the missed connections all the time, but Saturday I guess I needed something a little more titillating. I saw an ad for a “jock” looking for a similar “g0y” to “hang out” with. Wait a minute…what the fuck is a g0y?
Turns out, g0y is nothing short of a “movement”. Not just a trend, but a whole movement I’m missing out on! There are myriad websites addressing g0y issues, but the main instigator seems to be the proprietor of one g0ys.org.
Full disclosure here: on a lot of the message boards I’ve been reading the g0ys have criticized commenters for not having read the whole website. I freely admit, right now, that I’m guilty of the same. In my defense though, how anyone could be expected to slog through the entirety of that endless mess of a manifesto is totally beyond me. That place is set up like a goddamned 9-11 conspiracy website. It just flashes and scrolls, and drones on and fucking on.
Anyhow, back to the point at hand. What’s a g0y? Is that a zero instead of an A? How the hell do you pronounce a word with a zero right in the middle of it? Good questions! First off, yes, that is a zero and, no, I can’t assume to know how to pronounce it, but I’m guessing it rhymes with boy. Or annoy. Explaining what a g0y is seems a little easier than all that though. It seems to come down to this: g0ys are guys (who surely would have no problem describing themselves as “dudes” or “bros”) who like men (and dudes and bros) and love dick, but hate “femmes” and hate hate hate anal sex. Like, they really fucking hate anal sex. For pages and pages they hate it. Also, a lot of them seem to be conservative Christians.
Well that’s totally fine, right? I mean, no one is forcing anyone’s dick up anyone else’s asshole here. And if you don’t like “feminine” men, well, then you’re kind of a prick, but whatever. Don’t fuck them, don’t hang out with them. Who cares? But does that really constitute a movement? Is this something new? I understand that being a conservative person can put you at odds with being cocksucker, but isn’t there a better way to reconcile these facets of yourself than forming a “movement” whose basic tenets say “you dirty faggots gross me out”? Isn’t this movement really about, I don’t know, being kind of a deluded asshole with gender identity issues?
I’ve got two main problems with the site. The first, and less serious, is the “hey bro” frat-boy tone of it all. You’ve all seen this language, or at least I’m all to familiar with it, as it seems to be appear only in personal ads and porn stories. It’s just “two buddies kicking back and lending a dude a hand” and so on. I know these cues are supposed to be read as “straight acting” but honestly, I’ve never in my life met a straight guy who talked that way. And if I ever did I would immediately suspect he was a fag.
The second, more sinister aspect, is the blatant misogyny. I wouldn’t expect women to be discussed very much on a site encouraging guys to rub their dicks together. But when ever they are mentioned, the attitude seems to vary somewhere between dismissive and outright hostile. A lot of the problem they have with anal sex seems to be that they see men acting like “bitches” as an assault on masculinity everywhere. The suggestion being that doing things that women do is bad and shameful because women are themselves bad and shameful. Fine in their place, and they certainly serve a purpose, but you know…lesser. That old story.
I’ll wrap it up there. I could go on, but I don’t want get all g0yishly longwinded. I suspect that there will be some g0ys in the comments sections who will set me straight on this anyhow. If g0y.org is any indication, the movement may not be welcoming to the “fairer” among us, but is very windbag friendly.
Weird. I hadn’t heard of this.
Having pecs and delts doesn’t make you straight acting.
Weird. I hadn’t heard of this.
Having pecs and delts doesn’t make you straight acting.
I had heard of this a few years back, and it made even less sense to me back then. Just because you don’t have anal sex it doesn’t mean that you’re any less gay. If you are blowing your friend, you’re at least a little gay. Changing a letter to a number doesn’t negate the essence of the word. It just means that you’re a little butt-weary and need to find the right teacher to show you the way :). Having anal sex doesn’t mean that you have to be a “bitch”, I mean, look at all the amazing power bottoms out there…..
There is a hilarious bit in the UNVirgins section in which they bemoan the ’sloppy loss of language precision’. These must be the least self-aware people in the world. They really can’t wrap their minds around the idea that you can be gay without having anal sex, if it happens to not be your thing. Why people can’t just be themselves without putting the entire world into groups of ‘us’ and ‘them’ is beyond me.
Why is it so incredibly threatening to let people define themselves sexually?
Why do The Gays need everyone to conform?
Anonymous: Why do the ‘g0ys’ need to disparage gay men in order to define themselves?
This is funny! I thought that this what the “bears” were about- until I went to some bear things.
Sounds like the g0y movement is for the closet cases out there. I mean are they just looking for sex or a community?
g0y is no more right or wrong than people who identify culturally with this blog.
The g0ys disparagement of gay culture reads just like the the non-stop disparagement of gay culture found throughout The New Gay Blog…just with a different focus.
Play with your iphone and let them be. I think it’s fascinating.
g0y is no more right or wrong than people who identify culturally with this blog.
The g0ys disparagement of gay culture reads just like the the non-stop disparagement of gay culture found throughout The New Gay Blog…just with a different focus.
Play with your iphone and let them be. I think it’s fascinating.
A couple of random, unconnected things: first, I hope “g0y” isn’t pronounced “goy” (rhymes with “boy”), because that word is already taken: it means non-Jew, which makes no sense, in this context, unless there’s some sort of anti-Semitic subtext here that I’m missing, altogether.
Second, just to throw this out there: some guys just don’t enjoy anal sex. Similarly, some guys just aren’t particularly attracted to super-effeminate guys. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with either of these (as I’ve said, before, I think we, as gay people, should be comfortable with the notion that we don’t choose who we’re attracted to or what turns us on), and your post could be read to suggest that enjoying anal sex, for example, is a defining characteristic of being a gay man, something I don’t believe to be the case. I don’t think that’s what you meant, but it wasn’t entirely clear.
There’s no way I can justify going to that site while I’m at work, but I’m so full of questions now!
Are you allowed to talk about being g0y in public (i.e. not on the Internet), or is it like Fight Club?
Do you come out to friends and family as g0y? (“Mom, good news! I’m not gay!”)
Do g0ys want to be able to guy-marry their dudes? Or is that too faggy? Are g0ys expected to stay bachelors for life, or marry a bitch and go on the DL?
I will give them some credit for internal consistency. I always marvel at straight men who treat women like lesser life forms but want to sleep with them anyways… It seems like that would be bestiality by their own logic.
Anon, if you’re replying to me, I have no problem with mainstream gay culture; I just don’t identify with it. However, I don’t have to disparage it in order to not identify with it. If other people on TNG want to disparage mainstream gay culture, that is not up to me.
If some men want to have sexual experiences with other men without calling themselves gay, that certainly doesn’t affect me, but there’s no need to insult people who feel differently.
I don’t think Men Who Have Sex With Men (MSM) are insulting The Gays. I think they just want to be left alone and not coerced into conforming to some universal Gay identity chosen and imposed by other people, straight or Gay. The way Gay Culture is organized really is kind of fascistic. Allow other people to be different.
In other words diversity is great…unless it threatens you.
I don’t think Men Who Have Sex With Men (MSM) are insulting The Gays. I think they just want to be left alone and not coerced into conforming to some universal Gay identity chosen and imposed by other people, straight or Gay. The way Gay Culture is organized really is kind of fascistic. Allow other people to be different.
In other words diversity is great…unless it threatens you.
Most recent Anonymous, MSMs don’t insult gays by their nature. But the g0ys do. Check out the above and read their manifesto. http://www.g0ys.org/
I would like to call Shenanigans.
The gay community has room for many different types of people. Seriously, the language seems a little hater in tone, perceiving themselves as superior and all so misunderstood. That said being critical of the gay community is not to be a hater. A Christian doesn’t agree with every other Christian and gay people are allowed to say they like/dislike various aspects of the gay culture.
The process of coming out is often various stages of bargaining. I may like guys, but I’m not going to do anything about it. I only doing to look at pictures. I’m going to get oral, but not give, etc. We’ve been there and we recognize this behavior in others, so we are critical of this fatuous floundering they call a movement.
Straight acting isn’t superior and pecs and delts don’t make you straight acting. If you are a man who wants to spend his life with a man anal penetration or no anal penetration (getting off how ever you please with each other), you are gay.
That site might as well have been called “WereNotSissyFaggots.com”
re: Michael
Sure, most MSMs don’t insult The Gays. However, many Gays are really mean, nasty and hostile to anyone who is different from them. As an MSM I take it in stride.
Point is there isn’t 1 right and true way to love members of the same sex. Why does everyone have to conform?
It sounds a lot like that Androphilia nonsense a few years back, remember that? Jack Malebranche, I think his name was, the guy who wrote the book.
Are g0ys allowed to have sex at all? or just “wrestle”?
The frat boy tone is annoying, but it has some emotional resonance. Lots of men, when they come out, lose friendships with straight men because suddenly their affection is suspect. So it makes sense that these guys would want to create a community where they can be open about their attraction and still behave like regular guys with each other. It’s kind of sweet — though creepy too, I’ll admit.
“G0YS detest the concept of playing in another person’s butt”
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOZZZZZZZZZ.
oh.em.gee.
a word on the name – it seems as though the zero is meant to be a knot (not?) symbol. as in “not gay.” perhaps it pronounced g-notgay-ay.
“Point is there isn’t 1 right and true way to love members of the same sex. Why does everyone have to conform?”
I think the point, really, was more to the fact that the “g0y” idea seems to be only about 25% about who you love and about 75% about making sure you’re not one of those filthy girly faggots (because nothing could possibly be worse or more degrading than being girly!).
I don’t think it sounds “creepy” at all and I don’t understand why so many TNG readers are so angry about it.
Guys talk about how important it is not be “insulted” but every time I open a gay magazine or newspaper I am confronted with articles telling me how to measure up, what I should buy and how I should look. That is insulting.
This “g0y” movement starts off sounding interesting. I don’t really relate to the term “gay” very much either. And I don’t let whom I sleep with have a huge bearing on other aspects of my life: I have no interest in conforming to any gay norm.
However, these guys are just downright offensive. I agree with Adam on the offensiveness of the statement that anal sex is degrading and the equivalent to playing the female role.
All that being said, these g0ys are surely hated by mormons and other right-wing groups just as much as flaming queens, so they are potential allies in our struggle for equality. I bet the g0ys are pro-marriage…
This “g0y” movement starts off sounding interesting. I don’t really relate to the term “gay” very much either. And I don’t let whom I sleep with have a huge bearing on other aspects of my life: I have no interest in conforming to any gay norm.
However, these guys are just downright offensive. I agree with Adam on the offensiveness of the statement that anal sex is degrading and the equivalent to playing the female role.
All that being said, these g0ys are surely hated by mormons and other right-wing groups just as much as flaming queens, so they are potential allies in our struggle for equality. I bet the g0ys are pro-marriage…
Ok ok ok ok. g0ys are normal normal normal and average. They just engage in the minority sexual activity of getting it on with other guys while whinging that they aren’t like those sissy faggots over there who are also getting it on with other guys.
Whatever. Mary.
@ anon 7.37 pm: you are not insulted by teh gayz media, you are insulted by captialism. It is an essential distinction.
yeah, i imagine g0ys as pro-marriage too. this post may come off as much harder on the g0ys than i would be in reality. i’m not entirely unsympathetic to them, they’re just really easy targets for ridicule. it’s just that the whole thing seems so put on. i’m all for bucking convention and defying stereotypes, but these guys are just denouncing one pre-formed identity (what it is to be “gay”) for another (what it is to be a “man”). they don’t offer any real insight into what masculinity is, or what it means to be gay for that matter. it’s just a lot of “hey bro” cliches about bonding. through mutual masturbation of course.
yeah, i imagine g0ys as pro-marriage too. this post may come off as much harder on the g0ys than i would be in reality. i’m not entirely unsympathetic to them, they’re just really easy targets for ridicule. it’s just that the whole thing seems so put on. i’m all for bucking convention and defying stereotypes, but these guys are just denouncing one pre-formed identity (what it is to be “gay”) for another (what it is to be a “man”). they don’t offer any real insight into what masculinity is, or what it means to be gay for that matter. it’s just a lot of “hey bro” cliches about bonding. through mutual masturbation of course.
I think the “0″ in g0y represents the loophole some Christians invoke to avoid having to admit they are having sex.
Meaning … They don’t think blowjobs count as sex. I have even heard that some heterosexual Christian women don’t think anal intercourse is “sex.” The only thing that will keep them from wearing a white dress and claiming to be a virgin on their wedding day is vaginal intercourse.
I think the g0ys are milking the same loophole. The Christian right says that being gay is not a sin, but having gay sex is (love the sinner, hate the sin). So, maybe these misguided gentlemen think they can avoid the “gates of hell” by only doing oral.
And to those who would defend these guys’ “right” to define themselves as they see fit, I say fine. But if they are going to do it by denigrating me as a gay man, my partner, women, effeminate men and my other friends, then as a gay Christian, I am going to call BULLSHIT on them. Sucking another man’s dick with the intention of pleasuring him or yourself is SEX, ESPECIALLY if you intend to make him “nut.” (That’s what some of my straight friends call it.)
Like my Granny, who loves her gay grandson says, “You can tell yourself what you want, but you ain’t fooling Jesus.”
Hmmm … Is this what all the failed, ex-gays are doing with themselves now?
oral is moral
oral is moral
Sorry, one more thing. Is this what Christian Conservative Republican Sen. Larry Craig, from Idaho, meant when he said he wasn’t gay?
A BJ in the bathroom would by g0y, Right?
actually ed, i don’t think so. the g0ys are very adamantly anti-slut, and bathroom sex is about as slutty as it gets. i’m like their pr rep now. god.
actually ed, i don’t think so. the g0ys are very adamantly anti-slut, and bathroom sex is about as slutty as it gets. i’m like their pr rep now. god.
Fascinating.
I find the G0YDAR section interesting; it gives detailed instructions on how to seduce “STRAIGHT” men. Duplicity about ones sexual orientation is the very definition of creepy, but more than anything it is sad. Rather than ostracize these so-called g0ys, I think it’s more productive to focus on the forces that generate the homophobia, misogyny, and hatred they espouse, which are the same forces that keep them in the closet.
Hey Adam,
You need to read more about these dudes. You DO NOT want to have anything to do with them at all, and I don’t want people mistaking them for homosexuals. I want the G0ys to be G0ys and then let the chips fall where they may. These guys scare me.
Here’s why, from http://www.g0ys.org:
"With the string of hate e-mails & spam we see from this group of CAMEL JOCKIES; — We suggest that Old Bomb Head's brainwashed, flag-burning followers – join the ranks of Hitler & other similar violent political leaders in HELL." (Old Bomb Head is a reference to Mohammad, founder of Islam, which they call a “bastard religion.”)
“[Love is good. Butt, arse-sex bad.]“ I doubt they are going to support they LGBT community on the marriage issue. They refer to us as “phags.”
"Be prepared – because if the followers of either group would like to turn their theology into action against a us: Be prepared to respond by painting the scenery behind them with their brains -using a 'lead'-brush. The force of the law is for the law-breaker & the wages of sin is death. Their beliefs quoted: Be on the defensive; –Glock & load…"
Then they quote Jefferson, ""The tree of liberty must occasionally be watered with the blood of tyrants & patriots."
It goes on from there. http://www.g0ys.org/initialize.htm
I can’t help but read the 0 as an o and think goy. It’s like they’re self-hating jews sitting around arguing the finer points of their non-jewishness over kugel recipes. “DUDE! Kugel is SOOOO Jewish if you make it with noodles. EVERYONE knows a REAL man makes it with potatoes.”
re: Ed
Please elaborate more on “nut”.
I think one of my favorite bits about the website is how they site ancient Greece and say that anal sex was even viewed as illegal in that culture – nevermind that these relationships were often based in the power-over dynamics of pederasty.
I suspect the Craigslist g0y ads and the website are from the same author, or at least a very small number of people. No need to get upset about a small number of guys who just want to rub it rather than poke it.
But jeez, a whole website about it? Zzzzz…if you don’t like gettin’ poked just say so, no need to go register a domain name about it.
My guess is this really isn’t a movement, but a few guys (or maybe even just one) who is attracted to men but feels his masculinity is threatened. They’re posing as a movement in an attempt to “fake it until they make it.” My guess is that it will be no more than a blip on the interwebz (and even less IRL).
who says being on DL is just for the Black guys? ;-)
who says being on DL is just for the Black guys? ;-)
g0ys sound to me like cases of arrested development, who just now are finding the balls to do what they wanted to do in high school or college, yet still hold on to their hetero-seeming privilege. Have their cake and eat it too, which, whatever. Just grow up.
WTF? This is like a new breed of cult.
Sounds like the white version of being on the DL.
Thinking about "coming out g0y"? Hit the gym hard for at least 6 months before you do. If you do eventually "come out', – do it as a "g0y" & have some friendships in place that you can fall back on in all the ways that count. That way, if the sh1t hits the fan, you'll have the body to help negotiate a new living space (lots of other g0ys will be willing to take a chance on you) & you'll have the muscle to cover your arse
Oh…my…god.
Adam, your article is full of mis-representations of the G0y movement. I suspect you did not do a thorough examination of the website, as evidenced by your statements about misogyny and your mistaken opinion that we ‘focus on anal sex’. Also, you ridicule the spelling of the term G0ys. The g0y site clearly gives an explanation behind the history and meaning of the name, which is actually meant to be explained, not spoken. But for, simplicity, it IS pronounced exactly as one would expect: goys.
There are those reading here that will be able to recognize, despite their personal views, that I put a great deal of thought and time into my rebuttal. It’s unfortunate that many others wouldn’t put even 1/10th the effort into understanding the truths of the g0y movement instead of buying into what ‘others say’ against the movement. But, I suppose that is human nature for the masses. Only a few actually do the homework to be truly informed.
Many g0ys are married with families. You see, g0ys are not primarily about ’sex with men’ as most gAys surmise. It’s not surprising, since most gAys have been conditioned to operate in that mindset, as if there are no other and as if society is divided equally straight or gAy.
We are about same-gender-affection. There IS a difference. GAys often connect sexually based on a, sometimes fleeting, physical attraction – generally speaking,
that is how many gAy relationships start. Of course, there are exceptions. G0ys however, seek to establish a stronger emotional bond over the long-term before even CONSIDERING sexual expression. There are also many g0ys who are simply looking for non-sexual brotherhood and camaraderie, something that seems to be frowned upon in society once a man gets married, (women/wives can have ‘girlfriends’ but men are often supposed to forego any male bonding and remain strictly within the husband-wife paradigm.) This brotherhood is also something glaringly lacking in the physical/sexual environment that pervades much of the gAy community. Tell me, why do many gAys refer to their closeness with each other as ’sisterhood’, hmmmm? Not a very good PR talking point…
G0ys attention is focused not on anal sex, but on the inherent health dangers in anal sex; and don’t throw the ‘condom argument’ into the mix. Condoms fail 5% of the time, and that is too high a risk. Our focusing on the dangers are a response to the gAy community’s activists spreading LIES about the minimal risks of AIDS. The lies go so far as to statements being made that: ‘AIDS isn’t the threat it once was’; ‘it’s a manageable disease’; and one ‘can easily live 20-30 years with drug treatments before symptoms may appear’. Ummm, how about not getting it at all? How about teaching coming-out youth how to cut the risk dramatically by avoiding the NUMBER ONE method of disease transmission? Nothing you say can justify continuing down the same road gAy AIDS activists are leading their community.
We also acknowledge the dangers in anal sex between male/female. I have to throw that in lest someone accuse us of ignoring that issue. The fact is, g0ys is about men attracted to men, so of course we focus more on male/male sexual issues rather than male/female.
Back before AIDS became so prominent, anal sex wasn’t so ‘popular’…in fact, those that engaged in the fetish were referred to as ‘brownie queens’. The response of the gAy community to those blaming gAys for AIDS was not to change the course of history and eradicate AIDS from their own community; it was to allow the pro-sodomy agenda to hijack the equality movement and thus actually encourage the proliferation of the epidemic. And like sheep, many gAys buy into that, right up to the present day. If the gAy community took responsibility as they claim to be promoting ’safe(r) sex’, why is there such a proliferation and resurgence of barebacking porn being shoved on a new generation of coming-out young men? Who’s buying that stuff, hmmm? Those are real actors, acting in a dangerous manner, and then coming out into the real world and probably behaving exactly the same with guess who…many, including those here who badmouth G0ys responsible sexual behaviors. Based on the comments, why would any coming-out young men trust ANY of you? Google “Gay Sex”…what comes back? Not ‘relationships’, but mostly anal porn, in its many forms from vanilla to the most heinous of perverted fetishes. Funny (tragic, actually) how gAys here in the comments ridicule a community of men that choose to distance themselves from all that and what has failed in the ‘gAy lifestyle’.
The truth of the matter is that gAys are a minority; 9-12%. Men that are heterosexual account for about 40% of society. That leaves a pretty high percentage of men who may experience same gender attraction but don’t identify with “gAy”; but may label themselves thus because they are unaware of a new identity – g0ys. There are men who allow themselves to become immersed in the gAy lifestyle, despite it not actually feeling ‘right’ (I did so for 28 years before discovering g0ys 5+ years ago – I am 100% attracted to men, but the way some gAys behave embarrasses, repulses and scares me). It is those men we speak to, not the gAys for whom their lifestyle fits for them. Continue merrily on your way if you want; we aren’t interested – sexually or otherwise – in those that choose that path anyway. But we will continue to make our existence known to our prime demographic.
Our demographic are the guys that don’t identify with the gAy lifestyle, which is something completely different from ‘homosexual or bi-sexual orientation’; which may or may not be expressed sexually. I realize this premise will be way beyond some people’s comprehension.
GAys needn’t be threatened, as they are not our prime demographic (as much as you would like to think g0ys is a ’subset’, ’sub-culture’ or ’sub-community’ of gAy society, that is not true either.)
You might ask ‘why don’t we just go away’?
Sorry to disappoint you. It’s simple. Within your community, there are those men of all ages, and coming-out youth that are getting sucked into, for many, what is becoming a death-style, simply because they are unaware that an alternative EXISTS. We focus on a larger group of men – outside the gAy community – and the small minority of men who have been brainwashed that gAy is the ONLY option and now are caught in the gAy life/death-style. If it’s not for some, fine, but please acknowledge that for others it might be as much of a relief of conscience as the discovery for some that they aren’t the only ones who liked looking at naked men when they were young. GAys – especially those with a pro-anal viewpoint – don’t have automatic domain over men coming to terms with their homo- and bi-sexuality. Afraid we might steal away some prime targets?
Whether you, those others that commented negatively against g0ys here and elsewhere like it or not, G0ys IS a movement, you are correct about that. We aren’t going away and we are getting stronger and more recognized. The result will be, gAy will simply come to represent those factions many of your own will agree are acting irresponsibly within your community, but the majority do nothing about them nor ostracize their proliferation. The thing is, those that feel gAy doesn’t fit, don’t have to stay. All one has to do is feel out of place, discover the alternative, and agree…
Adam, your article is full of mis-representations of the G0y movement. I suspect you did not do a thorough examination of the website, as evidenced by your statements about misogyny and your mistaken opinion that we ‘focus on anal sex’. Also, you ridicule the spelling of the term G0ys. The g0y site clearly gives an explanation behind the history and meaning of the name, which is actually meant to be explained, not spoken. But for, simplicity, it IS pronounced exactly as one would expect: goys.
There are those reading here that will be able to recognize, despite their personal views, that I put a great deal of thought and time into my rebuttal. It’s unfortunate that many others wouldn’t put even 1/10th the effort into understanding the truths of the g0y movement instead of buying into what ‘others say’ against the movement. But, I suppose that is human nature for the masses. Only a few actually do the homework to be truly informed.
Many g0ys are married with families. You see, g0ys are not primarily about ’sex with men’ as most gAys surmise. It’s not surprising, since most gAys have been conditioned to operate in that mindset, as if there are no other and as if society is divided equally straight or gAy.
We are about same-gender-affection. There IS a difference. GAys often connect sexually based on a, sometimes fleeting, physical attraction – generally speaking,
that is how many gAy relationships start. Of course, there are exceptions. G0ys however, seek to establish a stronger emotional bond over the long-term before even CONSIDERING sexual expression. There are also many g0ys who are simply looking for non-sexual brotherhood and camaraderie, something that seems to be frowned upon in society once a man gets married, (women/wives can have ‘girlfriends’ but men are often supposed to forego any male bonding and remain strictly within the husband-wife paradigm.) This brotherhood is also something glaringly lacking in the physical/sexual environment that pervades much of the gAy community. Tell me, why do many gAys refer to their closeness with each other as ’sisterhood’, hmmmm? Not a very good PR talking point…
G0ys attention is focused not on anal sex, but on the inherent health dangers in anal sex; and don’t throw the ‘condom argument’ into the mix. Condoms fail 5% of the time, and that is too high a risk. Our focusing on the dangers are a response to the gAy community’s activists spreading LIES about the minimal risks of AIDS. The lies go so far as to statements being made that: ‘AIDS isn’t the threat it once was’; ‘it’s a manageable disease’; and one ‘can easily live 20-30 years with drug treatments before symptoms may appear’. Ummm, how about not getting it at all? How about teaching coming-out youth how to cut the risk dramatically by avoiding the NUMBER ONE method of disease transmission? Nothing you say can justify continuing down the same road gAy AIDS activists are leading their community.
We also acknowledge the dangers in anal sex between male/female. I have to throw that in lest someone accuse us of ignoring that issue. The fact is, g0ys is about men attracted to men, so of course we focus more on male/male sexual issues rather than male/female.
Back before AIDS became so prominent, anal sex wasn’t so ‘popular’…in fact, those that engaged in the fetish were referred to as ‘brownie queens’. The response of the gAy community to those blaming gAys for AIDS was not to change the course of history and eradicate AIDS from their own community; it was to allow the pro-sodomy agenda to hijack the equality movement and thus actually encourage the proliferation of the epidemic. And like sheep, many gAys buy into that, right up to the present day. If the gAy community took responsibility as they claim to be promoting ’safe(r) sex’, why is there such a proliferation and resurgence of barebacking porn being shoved on a new generation of coming-out young men? Who’s buying that stuff, hmmm? Those are real actors, acting in a dangerous manner, and then coming out into the real world and probably behaving exactly the same with guess who…many, including those here who badmouth G0ys responsible sexual behaviors. Based on the comments, why would any coming-out young men trust ANY of you? Google “Gay Sex”…what comes back? Not ‘relationships’, but mostly anal porn, in its many forms from vanilla to the most heinous of perverted fetishes. Funny (tragic, actually) how gAys here in the comments ridicule a community of men that choose to distance themselves from all that and what has failed in the ‘gAy lifestyle’.
The truth of the matter is that gAys are a minority; 9-12%. Men that are heterosexual account for about 40% of society. That leaves a pretty high percentage of men who may experience same gender attraction but don’t identify with “gAy”; but may label themselves thus because they are unaware of a new identity – g0ys. There are men who allow themselves to become immersed in the gAy lifestyle, despite it not actually feeling ‘right’ (I did so for 28 years before discovering g0ys 5+ years ago – I am 100% attracted to men, but the way some gAys behave embarrasses, repulses and scares me). It is those men we speak to, not the gAys for whom their lifestyle fits for them. Continue merrily on your way if you want; we aren’t interested – sexually or otherwise – in those that choose that path anyway. But we will continue to make our existence known to our prime demographic.
Our demographic are the guys that don’t identify with the gAy lifestyle, which is something completely different from ‘homosexual or bi-sexual orientation’; which may or may not be expressed sexually. I realize this premise will be way beyond some people’s comprehension.
GAys needn’t be threatened, as they are not our prime demographic (as much as you would like to think g0ys is a ’subset’, ’sub-culture’ or ’sub-community’ of gAy society, that is not true either.)
You might ask ‘why don’t we just go away’?
Sorry to disappoint you. It’s simple. Within your community, there are those men of all ages, and coming-out youth that are getting sucked into, for many, what is becoming a death-style, simply because they are unaware that an alternative EXISTS. We focus on a larger group of men – outside the gAy community – and the small minority of men who have been brainwashed that gAy is the ONLY option and now are caught in the gAy life/death-style. If it’s not for some, fine, but please acknowledge that for others it might be as much of a relief of conscience as the discovery for some that they aren’t the only ones who liked looking at naked men when they were young. GAys – especially those with a pro-anal viewpoint – don’t have automatic domain over men coming to terms with their homo- and bi-sexuality. Afraid we might steal away some prime targets?
Whether you, those others that commented negatively against g0ys here and elsewhere like it or not, G0ys IS a movement, you are correct about that. We aren’t going away and we are getting stronger and more recognized. The result will be, gAy will simply come to represent those factions many of your own will agree are acting irresponsibly within your community, but the majority do nothing about them nor ostracize their proliferation. The thing is, those that feel gAy doesn’t fit, don’t have to stay. All one has to do is feel out of place, discover the alternative, and agree…
Patrick does make the point that the other comments seem to overlook. The g0y thing is about primarily what in other contexts used to be called bi-sexual men, or the Kinsey 1-5 people.
And so if some guys need a cultural context that doesn’t try to force them to 0 or 6, then that seems rational. Yes, there’s an angry tone to a lot of that web site. I think it goes to the “break a few eggs” method that often starts any movement. Patrick was certainly more calm, well-spoken, and rational than the web site promoting the basic information.
The “leader” or primary author does write a lot from a religious perspective under the pseudonym “g0y veh” and there is humor in that, even when he’s obnoxious.
And you can read that there is no endorsement of “playing around” if you’re already in a relationship. This is not some way of getting boys on the side if you’ve already got a girlfriend (or boyfriend for that matter).
It seems to want to be kind and thoughtful, but lacks the eloquence you might expect from a more seasoned and experienced movement that’s taken its knocks and grown-up a bit.
Even if the tone is very offputting at times, the basic premises that all relationships should start with respect, and that your gender does not have to preclude intimacy, is progressive and probably welcome to many culturally stunted guys. The regular arguments about how history and doctrine have distorted mens affections probably brings great relief to self-loathing men. The proof of this though is as lost in history as the doctrines that also claim the righteousness of the “sin.”
Anonymous, I sure wish you weren’t anonymous. I’m easy to find, in the g0y Yahoo groups. I’d surely like to have a conversation with you. Track me down, if you wish, as I have no way to contact you…
Best wishes,
Patrick
I went to the g0ys main site & near the top of the 1st page, you'll read: "Likewise, since this website went on-line, it has drawn the fire of criticism from many directions & has been misrepresented by some who would rather slander, than offer a rational argument for their posturing. We merely ask that you, the visitors – look for yourselves, read the various essays posted by our g0ys contributors, & -then- thoughtfully draw your own conclusions!"
I think the opening blog proved how true that warning is and the amazing thing is – after spending some time on the site – how accurate the warning is about others making blatant misrepresentations (also know as LIES) about the g0ys movement. G0YS feelings about hating AnalSex are rational & well explained in the scathing essay called "No Apology". The statistics provided by the CDC are absolutely sobering & irrefutable. AnalSex is +5000% more dangerous than oral! Sholly Huck'n Fit! You could blow an unsheathed HIV+ guy 50 times before you reach the risk of (1) analsex condom-failure or bareback anal experience! Wake the f*ck up!
I went to the g0ys main site & near the top of the 1st page, you'll read: "Likewise, since this website went on-line, it has drawn the fire of criticism from many directions & has been misrepresented by some who would rather slander, than offer a rational argument for their posturing. We merely ask that you, the visitors – look for yourselves, read the various essays posted by our g0ys contributors, & -then- thoughtfully draw your own conclusions!"
I think the opening blog proved how true that warning is and the amazing thing is – after spending some time on the site – how accurate the warning is about others making blatant misrepresentations (also know as LIES) about the g0ys movement. G0YS feelings about hating AnalSex are rational & well explained in the scathing essay called "No Apology". The statistics provided by the CDC are absolutely sobering & irrefutable. AnalSex is +5000% more dangerous than oral! Sholly Huck'n Fit! You could blow an unsheathed HIV+ guy 50 times before you reach the risk of (1) analsex condom-failure or bareback anal experience! Wake the f*ck up!
Love my gay buddies but it’s a lifestyle I don’t like… doesn’t mean it’s wrong and who cares about my views anyways but it’s not for me. I go with the G0Y movement… it’s new… it’s hot… very masculine and let’s face it every single gay man out there would die to get into a straight or straight acting man’s pants. All G0Ys belong to that category.
Gay are awesome… G0Ys are great and you people learn to love each other.
There seems to be a misconception about some non-existent ‘gay lifestyle’ in which all gay men must participate. Yes, there is a mainstream homosexual male scene, and TNG is here to assist those of us who do not feel comfortable with it. However, everyone who is gay does not have the same lifestyle. There is room for all of us in this world. Some homosexual men act more effeminate than others; this does not make them worthy of scorn. It also does not mean that all gay men act that way. Not all gay men have anal sex. I don’t. Not because I’m hung up on some fictional idea of what is manly but because I do not derive erotic pleasure from it. I have a boyfriend, and we do other things.
The statement about straight men not having male friends once they are married is not true. I am friends with quite a few straight couples, and the men all have plenty of their own friends, just as the women do.
It IS true that our culture seems to have an exaggerated idea of what it is appropriate for straight men to do. It was not uncommon, for example, in mediaeval times (and still isn’t, in some cultures) for men to have very close friendships, to the point of having an arm round each other, holding hands, even a kiss on the cheek without being considered homosexual. I do think we need to be able to see that as normal for straight men without mocking them and calling them homosexual (which is an ironic thing for a gay man to do anyway).
I can see why the g0y idea (especially given the very hostile website) comes across to us, at first, as offensive or mockery. For a very long time, straight people have ridiculed what they saw as the ‘gay’ lifestyle– basically, effeminate men (which is just narrow-minded people imposing their own ideas of what is appropriate for a man to do upon others) and promiscuity. Now here come some people who appear to conform to the straight ideal of manhood but who are still attracted to men (without doing anything the stereotypical straight man would consider ‘gross’). Yes, I freely admit, it’s easy to say the ‘eat your cake and have it, too’ line. However, the world is made up of many different kinds of people, and not everyone’s sexuality is the same. Straight-acting gay men who don’t have anal sex? Not a problem.
Stereotyping all gay men as promiscuous? That IS a problem. It is simply not true. Sure, plenty of homosexual/gay men are promiscuous. So are plenty of heterosexual men. And by the way, the line about homosexual relationships starting because of physical attraction–isn’t that how most straight relationships start? There is nothing wrong with being physically attracted to someone, but for the relationship to work, there must be a deeper connection. That is just common knowledge, and it is true for every relationship, straight or gay.
Oh, and by the way, most recent Anonymous, not every gay man wants a straight or straight-acting man. I and many others are living proof of that.
What I’m saying now, and have been from the beginning, is love who you want however you want. It is not necessary to disparage others in order to do that.
Oh, and also, if one chooses to have sex a certain way, of course it is necessary to know the risks involved. If it’s a risk you want to take, it is not my or anyone else’s place to make that decision for you.
@Anonymous at 2:46 PM.
The g0ys homepage says: "Guys should never play a 'female role' sexually." Right? "Anal-Sex is degrading, dirty & disrespectful." Right again?
It is equating “female role” to being dirty and degraded. How should all the females who play that role sexually feel about that?
Plus, what’s wrong with anal sex between two loving and committed HIV- partners? You can only get HIV from someone who has it. You can’t rely on the health argument either. I just “degraded” my boyfriend last night, and guess what, he’s still HIV-negative.
@Anonymous at 2:53 PM, if gays are so awesome, why does the g0ys.org site continue to degrade them on every page?
Why can’t you g0ys base your movement on something more solid than shitting all over other people?
True masculinity does not need to announce itself. It does not need to promote itself. And it does not need to pass off homophobia as a lifestyle choice.
True masculinity does not need to announce itself. It does not need to promote itself. And it does not need to pass off homophobia as a lifestyle choice.
Some gays have anal sex, and some do not. Some have multiple partners, some seek monogamy, and some simply don’t have sex. Some are effeminate, some are butch, and most are somewhere in between. If you believe all gay men are effeminate queens into anal, you have absorbed some negative media stereotypes, and aren’t in touch with reality. If you are attracted to men you are simply either gay or bisexual. That’s it. I believe if you are gay you should embrace the label even if you don’t fit the stereotype. True courage would be to show the world just what varieties of human beings fall within the category of “gay”. Making up a name because you don’t like the media stereotypes is wrong-headed at best, and pathetic and shameful at worst.
The g0y movement is truly subversive, of both homo and hetero dominance. Because g0ys are willing to admit the truth… that sexual desire for most people is somewhere on a continuum between extreme homosexuality on one end and extreme heterosexuality on the other. Homophobia is, at its heart, a fear of ones own same-sex desires. It is the point of g0ys to provide an alternative to locking up and confining same-sex desires to the extreme end of the continuum, and open up same-sex desire to the mainstream.
i’ve looked again at the g0y website and i really don’t see how i’ve misrepresented anything.
the site’s author is CLEARLY OBSESSED with fags having anal sex. like, just nuts over it. an irrationally overblown paranoia over HIV infection is nothing new, and preying on that fear to get people to buy into your “movement” isn’t surprising (especially not from these tools). never mind the fact that if these guys were sticking to their principles of monogamy then there’s zero chance of anyone getting HIV if you both started out that way. whatever. and not to mention that using people’s discomfort with anal sex to vilify homosexual men is like, the oldest trick in the anti-gay book. well that’s gonna piss some of us ass fuckers off.
also, denying that there is a misogynistic current throughout the anti anal sex argument is just, well, blind. that you can’t even SEE it is just a testament to the (apparently insurmountable) depths of your misogyny.
look, i don’t have any problem problem with the basic idea of g0y. masculine dudes just doing what comes naturally or whatever the fuck posturing you want. people are free to get off pretty much however they want to (consensually, as if i even need to add that). and i’m sure there are some g0ys out there that aren’t batshit nuts like the g0ys.org creator surely, clearly is. could be.
i just think it’s sad that there are people out there (straight, gay, g0y) that actually BELIEVE so much in media representations of identity. that there’s some pre-fab way to be gay, or a punk, or a capital M MAN, or a single self-reliant female lawyer doing it for herself. you know, the people that actually believe that lauren and heidi work at teen vogue and live in the hills. they believe it so much that when they don’t see it in reality have to form a movement to reject it. it’s so…depressing.
have i veered off topic? i gotta get back to my physics homework. before i finish though, one more thing. i’m going to take this opportunity to encourage, nay, beg the g0ys and new gays to read
the end of gay by bert archer. i think he deals with these issues without coming off like a dick, as both the g0ys and i have.
i’ve looked again at the g0y website and i really don’t see how i’ve misrepresented anything.
the site’s author is CLEARLY OBSESSED with fags having anal sex. like, just nuts over it. an irrationally overblown paranoia over HIV infection is nothing new, and preying on that fear to get people to buy into your “movement” isn’t surprising (especially not from these tools). never mind the fact that if these guys were sticking to their principles of monogamy then there’s zero chance of anyone getting HIV if you both started out that way. whatever. and not to mention that using people’s discomfort with anal sex to vilify homosexual men is like, the oldest trick in the anti-gay book. well that’s gonna piss some of us ass fuckers off.
also, denying that there is a misogynistic current throughout the anti anal sex argument is just, well, blind. that you can’t even SEE it is just a testament to the (apparently insurmountable) depths of your misogyny.
look, i don’t have any problem problem with the basic idea of g0y. masculine dudes just doing what comes naturally or whatever the fuck posturing you want. people are free to get off pretty much however they want to (consensually, as if i even need to add that). and i’m sure there are some g0ys out there that aren’t batshit nuts like the g0ys.org creator surely, clearly is. could be.
i just think it’s sad that there are people out there (straight, gay, g0y) that actually BELIEVE so much in media representations of identity. that there’s some pre-fab way to be gay, or a punk, or a capital M MAN, or a single self-reliant female lawyer doing it for herself. you know, the people that actually believe that lauren and heidi work at teen vogue and live in the hills. they believe it so much that when they don’t see it in reality have to form a movement to reject it. it’s so…depressing.
have i veered off topic? i gotta get back to my physics homework. before i finish though, one more thing. i’m going to take this opportunity to encourage, nay, beg the g0ys and new gays to read
the end of gay by bert archer. i think he deals with these issues without coming off like a dick, as both the g0ys and i have.
DEV from bc? you mean british columbia? or boston college? i’m from vancouver, and it would make me pretty happy if some canadians were reading this back home.
DEV from bc? you mean british columbia? or boston college? i’m from vancouver, and it would make me pretty happy if some canadians were reading this back home.
I could decide that being Tibetan is way cooler than being a white man from the US, and start calling myself Tibetan, but I’m not going to become Tibetan. Or, more to the point, I could decide that solo sex by porn is the best sex ever, and that all sex involving messy human beings is nasty, and I could say that I’m “Ackafrack”, and part of an Ackafrack movement of porn-loving, human-flesh hating men. But that’s isn’t going to make me less gay. If you are attracted to men, I repeat, you are either gay or bisexual.
What bothers me about this is that when we need all gay men to throw off their cultural inhibitions and come out and be seen, in all their multifaceted glory, we instead have these guys who haven’t just desserted the movement, they’ve gone to the other side and are taking potshots at us. My paranoid side wonders whether the whole “g0y” idea isn’t really something cooked up by right-wing hate mongers to inflict some damage on the movement. As it is, these guys are a fundamentalist’s dream. “See, I told you, Ma. All them gays hate themselves. They don’t even want to be called “gay” anymore.” Pathetic.
As for subverting dominant paradigms, I’m all for it. But we already have adequate nomenclature for those who don’t fall at the extremes of hetero- or homosexuality. They are called “bisexual”, and they have a movement, too. Embrace who you really are, and don’t hide behind false names.
landoftrolls, you really want to confine everybody to preconceived images, don’t you? Kinsey showed that sexuality exists on a continuum. And in fact, most people can’t be pinned down so easily. Only a small percentage of people are on one end of the spectrum or the other. Why should my sexual feelings define an identity for me? Why can’t my sexual feelings be a way for me to relate to other persons first and foremost? Instead of a pigeonholed prefabricated set of parameters that define me as belonging to a community to which I have little affinity.
Yes Adam, I’m in Vancouver, BC.
DEV, read my comments carefully. If you aren’t gay, then you aren’t gay. If you are attracted to men, but aren’t a Kinsey 6, then you are bisexual. If you label yourself something else, you are being disingenuous. You’re free to do so, but recognize that by doing so, you are setting back not only our freedom, but your own.
If you are a bisexual who is butch and not into anal, then by all means call yourself and think of yourself as such. But when you adopt a made-up “g0y” label, you are doing so not only to describe yourself, but by the parameters of their web site, denigrating your gay brothers. I get enough hate from the straight world – why should I tolerate it from my brothers?
landoftrolls, please read my post more carefully. I’m not looking for an identity, I’m relating to other persons, human beings, as a sexual person. I see no reason why I must, if I’m a Kinsey 6, accept the label “gay” because you say so. Gay has taken on a whole host of things which I do not find myself in affinity with. I have an adequate identity without it. Gay was fine, so long as it meant that part of ourselves that was same-sex attracted. But it has been hijacked by people with other agendas. I’m all for live and let live, without judgment. But I strongly feel that dominant gay scene is nothing I want to be a part of, and I see no reason why I should be pigeonholed there (or anywhere, for that matter).
i think you two might be arguing different points. maybe i’m wrong here. i get landoftrolls’ suspicion of g0y and i get dev’s suspicion gay. in my earlier twenties i had no problem calling myself gay, but it always came with a caveat. i would often give a little speech about how i didn’t really believe in rigid sexual definitions and would say that i preferred to think of myself as “not heterosexual, not homosexual, but just sexual”. it should be noted that this was when i lived in vancouver (hi Dev, hear they’re closing the odyssey. good riddance) where people tend to be more indulgent of others’ eccentricities. so in that sense, i kind of believe g0y isn’t any more a “made-up” definition than gay is. but then i met my boyfriend and the possibility (which i considered a very real possibility at the time) of having sex with a woman in the future grew dimmer. now i have no real problem calling myself gay, free of disclaimers, and i just don’t see sex with women as anything that’s coming my way. i go to gay bars more than i ever did. shit i went to provincetown AND fire island this year and had an incredible time. the point being, i’m not unsympathetic to the IDEA of g0y. but if you Dev, are arguing that this g0ys.org mess is advocating what it seems like you’re advocating, i think you’re totally fucking wrong.
i think you two might be arguing different points. maybe i’m wrong here. i get landoftrolls’ suspicion of g0y and i get dev’s suspicion gay. in my earlier twenties i had no problem calling myself gay, but it always came with a caveat. i would often give a little speech about how i didn’t really believe in rigid sexual definitions and would say that i preferred to think of myself as “not heterosexual, not homosexual, but just sexual”. it should be noted that this was when i lived in vancouver (hi Dev, hear they’re closing the odyssey. good riddance) where people tend to be more indulgent of others’ eccentricities. so in that sense, i kind of believe g0y isn’t any more a “made-up” definition than gay is. but then i met my boyfriend and the possibility (which i considered a very real possibility at the time) of having sex with a woman in the future grew dimmer. now i have no real problem calling myself gay, free of disclaimers, and i just don’t see sex with women as anything that’s coming my way. i go to gay bars more than i ever did. shit i went to provincetown AND fire island this year and had an incredible time. the point being, i’m not unsympathetic to the IDEA of g0y. but if you Dev, are arguing that this g0ys.org mess is advocating what it seems like you’re advocating, i think you’re totally fucking wrong.
“Gay” is not an identity that one can change at will, like “Republican” or “Unitarian”. Gay is intrinsic – you are born gay or you are not. You may have picked up some negative stereotypes about the gay life, but they are just stereotypes. There are all kinds of gay people, with intrinsic characteristics (height, ethnicity, hair color), and malleable characteristics (Republican, Mormon, etc.). We are butch, we are femme, we are monogamous, we are promiscuous, we are relationship driven, we are solitary, we are conservative, we are leftists, we are party animals, we are boring, we are everywhere, doing and being just about everything.
You can call yourself “g0y” or Ex-gay or “Just For Men” or Super-Twink Eradicator, or whatever. If you are a Kinsey 6, by definition, you are gay. No one can force you to admit it, but that doesn’t change the truth.
IMHO, The best thing to do, if you don’t like the generally-received perception of gay culture, is to come out as gay and show the world how you are different from the stereotypes.
Says you, landoftrolls. But “gay” is a constructed identity, and even homosexual didn’t exist until the 19th century. I think, and so do others, that it is a misconstruction.
What has happened in the gay scene is that, by making sexual feelings into an identity, everyone has been forced into some sort of frenzy of definitions trying to fit in, and blaming others for their lack of satisfaction.
There are drag queens, radical faeries, trail hounds, bathhouse boys, leather daddies, twinks, subs and doms, BDSM, bears, circuit party boys, trolls, and on and on it goes.
So I might be rejected on any of the following grounds: have facial hair, don’t have facial hair, muscle mary, not muscle mary, circuit party and play, not circuit party and play, tattooed or not tattooed, shaved or dyed or poofy hair, not shaved, no 6 pack, etc. etc. etc.
Where does one fit in? Can’t I just be normal? Can’t I just relate to someone as a person, and not as an identity within an identity?
I’m just a normal guy. And if Kinsey is right, 60% or more of normal guys have same sex attractions. How is that the basis for an exclusive identity?
It’s not.
What I’m trying to say Adam is simply that gay has lost its original meaning, its tried to become a community and in doing so has emphasized its distinctiveness from the mainstream, rather than what it has in common with the mainstream.
By emphasizing that gay is exclusive and distinct, we deny the truth that stares us all in the face… that most people have same sex desires. This fact is the source of homophobia and the f-ed up notions of masculinity in North American culture.
I’m not saying the gay movement is to blame for this, I’m saying that gay plays into it.
We’ve been looking and looking for the gay gene. But guess what… there isn’t one to be found. Not because same sex attraction is not inborn or unnatural, but because it’s there in the majority, not in some exclusive constructed minority group.
This is the rub, that g0ys find so disturbing about the gay world. The assumption that there is a tiny minority who expresses same-sex desire is a heterosexually-defined stigma attached to same-sex behaviour.
That “gay” plays into this is what bothers g0ys. Neither straights nor gays really exist except in the construction of 19th century categorizers.
Men throughout history have loved other men, including sexually, without requiring an entire identity to be constructed around this behaviour.
P.S.: Yes, good riddance to The Odyssey.
and that’s what bothers ME about g0ys. they’re just inventing a new identity around sexual behaviour rather than challenging any existing one. they’re just replacing one with another and i think that’s pretty undeniable from the website. unless the website truly is just the fevered dream of a madman.
and that’s what bothers ME about g0ys. they’re just inventing a new identity around sexual behaviour rather than challenging any existing one. they’re just replacing one with another and i think that’s pretty undeniable from the website. unless the website truly is just the fevered dream of a madman.
Hi, Dev in BC:
Have you bothered to check out with this site, The New Gay, is all about? You’ll find that we have a mission here similar to the g0ys.org platform, except we do it without shitting all over gays and women.
Check out these links:
http://www.thenewgay.net/2008/05/what-is-new-gay.html
http://www.thenewgay.net/2007/06/new-gay-says.html
Adam: The more it is about identity, the more it is about a “type” or “fitting in” to a model. And the anonymous cruising, the fetish, the gender bending… that’s not what most guys who are same-sex attracted are into. Most of us are just normal guys. But if you try to create a “gay community” then how do you fit into it? By conforming and playing by rules. By using the reference points of others. The more you do that, the more you deny yourself the right to simply be who you are. Instead of being liberated, same-sex attraction is turned into a club… if you’re not a gym bunny, bear, leather daddy, twink, circuit party boy, rich troll, you just don’t exist. My love of sports is supposed to be a fetish into sports kit? Is that it? My facial hair makes me a daddy or a bear? My muscles turn me into a gym bunny? How ’bout “regular guy” who is horny for other regular guys? My Kinsey rating is not that far from the other Kinsey ratings, and they not far from the others either. Same sex attraction is universal, and that is where we will find true liberation.
Adam: The more it is about identity, the more it is about a “type” or “fitting in” to a model. And the anonymous cruising, the fetish, the gender bending… that’s not what most guys who are same-sex attracted are into. Most of us are just normal guys. But if you try to create a “gay community” then how do you fit into it? By conforming and playing by rules. By using the reference points of others. The more you do that, the more you deny yourself the right to simply be who you are. Instead of being liberated, same-sex attraction is turned into a club… if you’re not a gym bunny, bear, leather daddy, twink, circuit party boy, rich troll, you just don’t exist. My love of sports is supposed to be a fetish into sports kit? Is that it? My facial hair makes me a daddy or a bear? My muscles turn me into a gym bunny? How ’bout “regular guy” who is horny for other regular guys? My Kinsey rating is not that far from the other Kinsey ratings, and they not far from the others either. Same sex attraction is universal, and that is where we will find true liberation.
The glaring flaw in the logic here is that ‘g0y’ is exactly the same thing: a ‘community’ with its own ‘rules’. Gay is, frankly, not just one community. Gay is just slang for homosexual. Straight people who are also narrow-minded may think that all homosexuals belong to the same community, but we don’t, obviously.
The glaring flaw in the logic here is that ‘g0y’ is exactly the same thing: a ‘community’ with its own ‘rules’. Gay is, frankly, not just one community. Gay is just slang for homosexual. Straight people who are also narrow-minded may think that all homosexuals belong to the same community, but we don’t, obviously.
Michael, thanks for sharing the links. They resonate a great deal with me. I’d like to say that I don’t think g0ys are shitting over women. The anti-anal attitude is hard to explain to the mainstream gay-identified world. But it is not a putdown of women by saying that gay men, when being fucked, are acting like women. We don’t think there is anything wrong, for instance, in vaginal sex. The vagina was made for sex. But the anus was not, and has no erectile or sensitive tissue that responds sexually. To g0ys, anal sex seems like finding a substitute hole, or treating another person’s body as if he/she were only a hole to be used for my pleasure. We prefer face to face intimacy where both partners are being equally stimulated at the same time. Vaginal sex stimulates and pleasures both partners equally. But anal sex does not. So it’s not about putting down women.
Fine Hans… but where does a young man, just coming out, just accepting his sexual feelings for other men, where does he go to fit in? How will he do it? It’s awfully hard being lonely and young and new to the scene. And so what happens, with the negative self-images, etc. The answer is often to jump into a prefabricated identity. Before you know it, that young man may be infected with an STD, perhaps even a life-threatening one. All to fit in and find a place. G0ys simply offer an alternative model of what these feelings mean, and we are networking to make sense of it, and to form a movement designed to liberate all men, regardless of where they are on the Kinsey scale, from the confines of a rigid dichotomy. So far, there are no g0y bars, or g0y parades, and probably never will be. Instead, we are dialoguing about what same-sex attraction means. We don’t need an “identity” per se… because g0y is about relating to other human beings on an intimate level, rather than playing games with identity and turning feelings into fetishes in order to fit in.
Hi, Dev.
Thanks for your rational reply. If your site and movement aren’t intended to offend women, then your webmaster should update the site to remove comparisons between anal sex and being treated like a woman.
As for the statement that the “anus… has no erectile or sensitive tissue that responds sexually,” have you ever heard of the prostate? Sperm banks nurses can stimulate orgasm simply by massaging the prostate. Check out the prostate message entry in WikiPedia: stimulation of the prostate and anus in itself, tends to increase the intensity of male ejaculation and orgasm.
If “bottoming” didn’t feel good, us gAys wouldn’t do it! Nor would straights: There’s a great scene in the super str8 and fratty movie Road Trip where the main character gets hooked on having girls massage his prostate. Lots of straight guys like anal stimulation, butt plugs, fingers, etc. Enjoying the anus and prostate as sexual organs isn’t just a gay thing.
To Dev re Hans: We are all on the same page here, but TNG and its readers aren’t so afraid of the word “gay” as you guys seem to be. Other than that, the butt sex thing and the misogyny, g0y = new gay. You’re preaching to our choir, we’re just going about it differently.
Michael: I’m willing to live and let live, but I’m bothered by the gay male world’s heavy emphasis on anal sex as some sort of ultimate sexual experience. There are lots of men who are into same-sex experiences, who reject anal sex as negative, dangerous, and damaging, as well as unpleasurable for the “bottom.” Check out the man2manalliance for a different perspective on male bonding.
Michael: I’m willing to live and let live, but I’m bothered by the gay male world’s heavy emphasis on anal sex as some sort of ultimate sexual experience. There are lots of men who are into same-sex experiences, who reject anal sex as negative, dangerous, and damaging, as well as unpleasurable for the “bottom.” Check out the man2manalliance for a different perspective on male bonding.
Thanks, Michael–I was writing a post to say what you just did, much more simply and effectively than I was going to. ^_^
You’re very welcome, Hans.
g0ys.org and TNG could be allies with a shared cause if the g0ys.org website didn’t come off as so offensive to those who are comfortable identifying as gay. If you guys are really live-and-let-live, then please update your website to stop denouncing our way of life to justify yours.
Part of what I think is the issue here, and why some of you are interpreting g0ys as anti-women or misogynist, is that g0ys see same-sex attractions as a celebration of maleness, of being the same, of affirming each other in our maleness, without detracting from femaleness and not wanting either man in the relationship to play some gender-bending game.
What g0ys are disturbed about in “gay” is the dichotomous nature of creating a whole identity, the tendency to deny the reality that same sex attraction is common, perhaps universal, and normal.
Many same-sex attracted men find the gay scene offensive. Perhaps we are all forming something important that will challenge that scene. That would be good.
As for the g0y site, I’m not the owner… The language can be off-putting, and was for me at first, but I find it less problemmatic with time.
One of the goals of the movements founder is to challenge right wing Christianity’s view of same-sex desire and the Biblical verses addressing it.
What g0ys are mostly about is overcoming stigmas associated with same-sex desire, overcoming shame which emphasizes the “dirtiness” and the extreme forms of man to man sexual activity.
It is clear that there are quite a few things that you don’t understand about homosexuality, but I don’t have time to go through all of them. It has nothing to do with gender-bending. If you feel that you were born into the wrong gender, that would be (I hope I have the term right) transgendered. Gay men are men, sans question.
I would really like to hear from women whether they see certain views expressed on the g0y.org website as misogynistic. After all, women would be the best judges of that.
Also, if certain homosexuals find aspects of a particular scene offensive, well, I agree that challenging that is good, but you can’t lump every gay man into one scene. Basically, you are associating those of us at TNG with the stereotypical gay scene, and as we are not part of it, naturally we (or at least I) find that irritating.
Apparently you haven’t looked at a gay pride parade. There’s plenty of gender-bending there. And I’ve had more than one gay man refer to himself as a “bitch” or to other gay men as “bitches”… I even had a guy say to me during sex “I want to be your bitch” which I found strange, since I wanted to be with a man. How many gay men refer to each other as “girlfriend” or “mary”? There’s plenty of gender-bending to find in the gay scene. While these may be dismmissed as “joking” they are gender-bending. The site, by the way, does not deny that men have feminine qualities, just as women have masculine qualities. Valuing maleness and masculinity is not misogynistic. g0ys value being intimate with another man. That is not to say anything (positive or negative) about the nature of women. We find anal sex to be a kind of mimicry of heterosexuality, and see no point in micmicking something that is already in existence and with which we have no problem. We want man to man, face to face, sameness to sameness, in our same-sex experience.
Dev, please read my piece on Pride and the subsequent discussion.
Would like to say, Hans, that I don’t think I or any other g0y man here has attempted to lump YOU guys into the stereotypical gay culture. We are challenging the whole idea that gay is a useful category, because sexual feelings and desires should not become a category into which one must fit, but should be a way of relating to other people, which is what sexuality is FOR in the first bloody place! We g0ys here are simply clarifying who we are (after having been attacked, which is fine, dialogue is good). If TNG is similar, then we have some stuff in common that might be the basis for further exploration. But I still don’t think “gay” as an identity is healthy. When it simply meant “same sex attracted” that was fine, and all to the good. But it no longer is just that. Why do you feel the need to defend the category “gay”? Why have a category that excludes the vast majority of men who have same sex attraction? If it is just to give a place for gender-bending drag queens and radical faeries and leather daddies, then let them have it. My feeling, anyway. I sure don’t belong there.
Dev, we feel the need to defend the category “gay” because a lot of people have fought really and hard to give you the freedom to have sex with men when you want to. You’re not turning your back on a label, you’re turning your back on years of struggle and bloodshed and activism because you don’t want to be pigeonholed with a bunch of butt-fucking faeries. The gender benders and leather daddies are part of our community, but so are the doctors and writers and sci-fi geeks. All you’re doing by distancing yourself is strengthening the stereotype you’re avoiding.
And its worth pointing out again that you’re reacting to a label (gay) by forming a new one (g0y.) How is your sexuality-defined label any different htan ours?
Dev, we feel the need to defend the category “gay” because a lot of people have fought really and hard to give you the freedom to have sex with men when you want to. You’re not turning your back on a label, you’re turning your back on years of struggle and bloodshed and activism because you don’t want to be pigeonholed with a bunch of butt-fucking faeries. The gender benders and leather daddies are part of our community, but so are the doctors and writers and sci-fi geeks. All you’re doing by distancing yourself is strengthening the stereotype you’re avoiding.
And its worth pointing out again that you’re reacting to a label (gay) by forming a new one (g0y.) How is your sexuality-defined label any different htan ours?
god, that vagina being “made” for a penis thing is so hollow. your penis was “made” for delivering sperm to an egg, so is any other use you put it to false and unnatural? (also, do you live in east van? i mean it couldn’t be the west end. don’t tell me you live on the north shore! that’s is isn’t it?)
god, that vagina being “made” for a penis thing is so hollow. your penis was “made” for delivering sperm to an egg, so is any other use you put it to false and unnatural? (also, do you live in east van? i mean it couldn’t be the west end. don’t tell me you live on the north shore! that’s is isn’t it?)
Re: gay men calling each other ‘bitch’ or ‘mary’–I don’t know anyone who does this, or if they do, it isn’t in front of me.
You are right, though–I haven’t been to a pride parade in a while, but even so, I don’t think that it is fair to look at what happens one day out of the year and say that’s how people live their lives all the time. Anyway, if people want to engage in gender-bending, that is fine with me, but as I keep saying, gay does not equal gender-bending, or any of the other stereotypes you keep applying, although there are certainly cases where they go together. It simply refers to men who are sexually attracted to other men and not women.
Re: gay men calling each other ‘bitch’ or ‘mary’–I don’t know anyone who does this, or if they do, it isn’t in front of me.
You are right, though–I haven’t been to a pride parade in a while, but even so, I don’t think that it is fair to look at what happens one day out of the year and say that’s how people live their lives all the time. Anyway, if people want to engage in gender-bending, that is fine with me, but as I keep saying, gay does not equal gender-bending, or any of the other stereotypes you keep applying, although there are certainly cases where they go together. It simply refers to men who are sexually attracted to other men and not women.
Zack: The difference, in my view, between g0y and gay is that g0ys are not trying to claim an exclusive identity or to create a community, but simply to explain that same sex attraction is common and ordinary, and not pigeonholeable. We represent men who feel that “gay” has deviated from its original meaning to an extreme label with extreme associations.
Adam: read more carefully. I didn’t say anyting about vaginas being made for penises or vice versa. I simply pointed out that sexual tissue responds to sexual tissue. For two men, this means dick to dick, not anal. Yes, I live in the West End. I really do.
Adam: read more carefully. I didn’t say anyting about vaginas being made for penises or vice versa. I simply pointed out that sexual tissue responds to sexual tissue. For two men, this means dick to dick, not anal. Yes, I live in the West End. I really do.
Hans: You don’t know any gay men who call each other “bitch” or “mary”??? YOu don’t get around gay men very much do you? I do, and I hear it all the time! Gay, in its original sense, did not mean gender bending, but it has a lot of that. It has migrated to a visible extreme. Perhaps it can be reclaimed, but I don’t think so. I say let the extreme have it, and let us who are not extreme just accept that we have same-sex attractions that are part of how we form relationships and relate to others on an intimate level, and lets leave the identity-making to others.
Hans: You don’t know any gay men who call each other “bitch” or “mary”??? YOu don’t get around gay men very much do you? I do, and I hear it all the time! Gay, in its original sense, did not mean gender bending, but it has a lot of that. It has migrated to a visible extreme. Perhaps it can be reclaimed, but I don’t think so. I say let the extreme have it, and let us who are not extreme just accept that we have same-sex attractions that are part of how we form relationships and relate to others on an intimate level, and lets leave the identity-making to others.
hrm, i’m just curious – it kind of seems like g0y is simply the male version of being bisexual in a society where it’s harder for men to bend gender/sexuality norms. no?
The more I read comments like the pro-g0y-label here, the more the “g0y” label appears to be an attempt to normalize internalized homophobia. Being gay isn’t a sickness, but homophobia is. And it is treatable.
“Gay” doesn’t mean girly men into anal. “Gay” means homosexual, and there are many different kinds of homosexual. The so-called g0ys need to get over their homophobia, and not just tolerate their brothers of all stripes, but embrace them. We get enough hate from society at large. Adopting a “g0y” label won’t save anyone from it. Re-educating ourselves and society will.
As a matter of fact, most of my friends are gay, and yes, we go to gay bars, parties, &c, frequently. I won't say I've never heard that sort of talk in my life, but here in DC it has been minimal at the most.
Last comment from me.
I think from the g0y perspective, the dominant gAy scene is an example of INTERNALIZED HOMOPHOBIA.
Anonymous cruising of trails and bathhouses, fetishizing what should be intimate, fisting (which I can’t even see as a “sexual” act since no sexual organ is involved), circuit parties, party and play… these are all reactions to societies stigmas about man to man sexuality, internalized and degrading.
G0ys want to celebrate man to man sexuality as normal, common, beautiful, mutual, intimate and affirming.
While many gay-identified men want the same thing, the gay “community” (whatever that is) celebrates the opposite in every parade, every obscene personal ad wanting anonymous on-demand sex, in every gay publication practically, in most gay porn, and adulation of porn (not that porn is wrong, per se, but should we all aspire to be like porn stars, really?).
I’m curious about TNG… if you don’t like the gay world, why do you object to it being criticized and defend it rigorously?
Just wanting gay men to think about what they’ve done to themselves, the values they’ve adopted.
Would hope that wouldn’t be called “internalized homophobia.”
Last comment from me.
I think from the g0y perspective, the dominant gAy scene is an example of INTERNALIZED HOMOPHOBIA.
Anonymous cruising of trails and bathhouses, fetishizing what should be intimate, fisting (which I can’t even see as a “sexual” act since no sexual organ is involved), circuit parties, party and play… these are all reactions to societies stigmas about man to man sexuality, internalized and degrading.
G0ys want to celebrate man to man sexuality as normal, common, beautiful, mutual, intimate and affirming.
While many gay-identified men want the same thing, the gay “community” (whatever that is) celebrates the opposite in every parade, every obscene personal ad wanting anonymous on-demand sex, in every gay publication practically, in most gay porn, and adulation of porn (not that porn is wrong, per se, but should we all aspire to be like porn stars, really?).
I’m curious about TNG… if you don’t like the gay world, why do you object to it being criticized and defend it rigorously?
Just wanting gay men to think about what they’ve done to themselves, the values they’ve adopted.
Would hope that wouldn’t be called “internalized homophobia.”
Dev in BC
My advice to you is to get out of your house and meet more "gay" people. All the stuff you described is on the extreme end of the spectrum. Most of us agree with the concept of getting rid of preconceived labels. This mythological "gay agenda" you keep mentioning seems to fuel more of your ideas about gay people than actual gay people. I have read the g0y.com website extensively. So, I hear where you are coming from, and I think you have been, right up to the line, polite. But, in addition to meeting more "real" gay people as opposed to the caricatures you keep describing, I would suggest that you don't pick and choose which parts of the g0y movement you choose to embrace. There is stuff on that website that is duplicitous, hypocritical, manipulative, and potentially illegal. It viciously attacks all gay men or men who identify as gay or homosexual. If you want to carve out a little place in the world where you can do your thing, more power to ya. But let me ask you something. Are the things you are espousing what you genuinely believe in your heart or are they a reaction? Are they filler for an inability to explain your same sex affection and to find a place where you can feel comfortable?
I mean the part of the site that says it's okay for married men to sneak away from their families for a little bro on bro action doesn't sound like something a nice guy like you would agree with. Also, I find it hard to believe that you would encourage high school aged boys to get built so that they can better "negotiate" where they can live if they are thrown out because people think they are gay. Apparently, the author of the site thinks that 15 & 16 year olds will do well with older men who can appreciate their bodies.
I seriously doubt you would advocate adultery and preying on boys barely out of puberty. Seems kind of … hmmm … immoral? I wonder where monogamous gay sex stacks up against mentoring young boys to get nice bodies so that g0ys will have a steady stream of confused, manipulated teenagers with whom they can wrestle and show affection. But I am sure you think that's a bad idea as well.
Hey all, another g0y guy weighing in from Texas. I’m fresh to TNG but this discussion so far has been anything buy conventionally gay.
Staunch defense of gender bending? Check.
Staunch defense of, and I quote,”a bunch of butt-fucking faeries”? Check.
Staunch defense of anal sex? Check.
Just what about this site is “the new gay” anyway? I know the g0y movement is far from perfect but at least their is an honest effort to introduce an alternative for guys coming to terms with their same-sex attractions.
And dammit if I didn’t type the ‘their’ instead of ‘there’! lol
Ok, I am going to repeat myself yet again, but I’ll lay it out as simply as possible.
Being gay does NOT require you to engage in gender-bending, anal sex, or anything else.
If you want to do any of those things, feel free. If you don’t want to do them, then don’t–but don’t put down people who do. Of course people will defend their right to do as they please, but that doesn’t mean they’re telling you to do it, too.
Homosexual/gay men are men who are sexually attracted to other men and not women. That’s it.
Is this clear enough yet? Because as pleasant and polite as this discussion has been, it is starting to become tiresome.
To find out why the site is called ‘The New Gay’, click Michael’s links above.
And there’s the fallacy in your logic, Hans. Gay, under no circumstance, actually only means attracted to the same sex. It’s agreed that it did long ago but that is no longer the case. Now gay is just a word used to blanket almost every fetish this world has to offer, from fisting to watersports to scat play, because simply meaning same sex attracted wasn’t good enough anymore. That’s where the problem with identity arises, because you want to force guys (this coming from group de diversity) into accepting a the gay label, especially when the label no longer fits.
You say being gay doesn’t require you to perform any gender bending acts and I agree. But i’ll take your thought to it’s logical conclusion and say having same-sex attractions doesn’t require you to wear the gay label, not when it no longer fits. That’s why I choose the g0y label, and probably why lots of guys have already chosen g0y.
Ryan, the fetishes you mention are not exclusive to the gays. “Fisting to watersports to scat play” are enjoyed by straight people, too.
Fetishes and sexuality are two separate things.
True, lots of gay men like to wear their fetishes on their sleeves, but that by no means says that they are the only ones who partake. There are TONS of straight people at the Folsom Street Fair, which is basically fetishes on parade.
As a gay person, I find most of what happens at Folsom revolting and I’m wont to distance myself from it, but I sure as hell won’t contemn them for doing what they want. And I won’t let their fetishes tarnish my identity.
Something tells me that these g0ys just care far too much what other people think about them.
Yeah, butt sex is nasty. But so is vaginal sex. Sex is gross, by nature. Get over it.
No fetishes are not exclusive to the gay demographic, of course straight people engage in fetishes like anal sex as well. Thing is, g0y doesn’t care what orientation the fetish takes place in, we advocate foregoing anal sex no matter who you’d care to do it with, be it a guy or a girl.
Also, if you don’t think you care what other people think about you then I suggest you take a careful look at the previous pro-gay posts of this thread. Notice a trend? Seems we, the g0ys, could care less what ‘gay’ people think about us, evidenced by our presence here despite disparaging opinions.
Ha ha, funny thing about vaginal sex, it’s not as nasty as you claim(not that anyone else here said it was). The vagina is home to a host of anti-microbials with the sole purpose of preventing diseases from taking hold, which the anus is not. Whether that anus is on a man or a woman makes no difference.
Don’t know where you got the idea that g0ys think sex is gross but it wasn’t from anyone here OR the website. You might want to check your facts next time.
Ryan R. said; Gay, under no circumstance, actually only means attracted to the same sex. It’s agreed that it did long ago but that is no longer the case.
The previous statement is false. “Gay” does mean attracted to the same sex, period. It is still the case that it means “attracted to the same sex,” and that is exactly what it means, nothing more and nothing less. Some may ascribe a negative connotation to the word “gay”, but that is merely their opinion, and not a reflection of reality.
Again, as I have said, gays come from a variety of backgrounds, live a variety of lifestyles, and exhibit a variety of behaviors and sexual practices. All the bullshit denials from the so-called “g0y” crowd do not negate this truth.
“Homosexual” means same-sex desire. “Gay” actually originally meant a life free of commitments… and originated in the theatre and among performers of various kinds, who often had homosexual desires.
“Gay” simply doesn’t represent what the majority of same-sex attracted men are, especially with its self-loathing stigmas of fetish, anal sex, anonymous anti-intimate cruising, circuit parties, party and play, etc.
It’s supposed to be the “New Gay” but I don’t see anything “new” in your defense of the old gay right and left.
What do you have to criticize about “gay”? Apparently nothing.
Is TNG just a sham? Or do you have a meaningful critique of “gay”?
G0ys have a good point. We are not gAy. It’s that simple.
http://www.thenewgay.net/2008/05/what-is-new-gay.html
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gay
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay
Read and be enlightened, though you seem to have made up your minds in advance. I have enjoyed much of this discussion, and many of the points have been valid. I have considered them very carefully and agreed with some. However, at this point it has degenerated into proselytising with closed ears and open mouths, and that is not a dialogue. I’m unsubscribing from the thread, so don’t bother replying to me directly as I will not see it.
Ryan Reborn:
The more you talk the more you demonstrate a fundamental inability to generate independent thought. I AM NOT attacking you. I am merely pointing out that in your attempts to be morally superior, you keep running back to hateful stereotypes in your g0y.org talking points to back up your arguments.
Allow me to give you an example.
The American Heritage Dictionary defines “fetish” as such: 1. Something, such as a material object or a nonsexual part of the body, that arouses sexual desire and may become necessary for sexual gratification.
2. An abnormally obsessive preoccupation or attachment; a fixation.
g0ys CLEARLY have an abnormal obsession or fixation on anuses. It’s almost all you people talk about. Anus this and anus that. I’m GAY, and I don’t think about anuses nearly as much as you people. I would be worried about that if I were you. The pendulum always swings back in the opposite direction. I see poop in your future.
Fantasizing about “seducing” closeted or “masculine” men to either blow them or jerk them off sounds like #1 (the nonsexual part of the body being their big, manly appearance and/or personalities). g0y.org explains that when you were a little baby g0y, and didn't know what sex was, you still picked up on your father's sexual maturity stating, “At the time – your father WAS sexually mature: So you felt a platonic form of "love" for a sexually mature guy. You impartially loved his skin, shadow, voice, physique & demeanor. In regular families — these feelings eventually evolved into horseplay; — & affection, trust & empathy were locked in place with the MALE parent.”
However, Joe Kort, M.A., MSW writes, “What about gay men’s sexual obsessions with real straight men? I’ve heard countless clients tell me of their interest in “getting sexual with a straight man” for one night.”
He adds,”I see sexual fantasies about straight men as longings for being accepted by straight men in general or your father. Straight men can be stand-ins for your fathering figures— … As children, we do love these paternal figures and we want their acceptance; as adults, we sexualize these straight men because it unconsciously offers a way to feel safely and pleasantly attached to them. In the sexual fantasy of pleasing a straight guy, you finally get a chance to make contact with him and get the approval you have always wanted.”
How were things with you and your dad? My dad is a dick, so I don't really want or need his approval. So, that frees me up to be in relationships with guys who actually want to be with me. I don't have to do that whole "seduction" thing you g0ys like.
The part I think is interesting is when Kort writes this dynamic is, “ … very similar to that of the fag hag who flirts heavily with gay men.” Ironic, don’t you think? g0y.org describes the need of men who have a fetish for masculine or straight men to simulate an early childhood bond with their father. But according to Kort, this behavior is similar to that of the “Fag Hag.” I thought you guys were against playing the “female” role. Hmmm.
I know what you are going to say. You are against playing the female role in bed, right? Well, I know TONS of gay guys who figured out they were gay by testing the waters once. That one time was with their best friend/girlfriend, the female some might call their fag hag. So, it turns out there is a sexual element to it after all.
Are g0ys really just fag hags seeking their father's approval?
TO The New Man in Town:
So this all boils down to a semantic argument?
You say that you guys can’t relate to gay, ” … especially with its self-loathing stigmas of fetish, anal sex, anonymous anti-intimate cruising, circuit parties, party and play, etc.”
Once again, burying oneself in stereotypes.
You say, “It’s supposed to be the “New Gay” but I don’t see anything “new” in your defense of the old gay right and left.” You make it political?
So, you are basing your decisions on bigoted stereotypes and an inability to think beyond right vs. left, red vs. blue. Hmmm.
“What do you have to criticize about “gay”? Apparently nothing. Is TNG just a sham? Or do you have a meaningful critique of “gay”?”
Dude you stink of right-wing zealotry. The thing that is NEW about The New Gay is that it, in my opinion, is proving guys like you wrong every single day. This is a place where people are not required to tear something down, burn it and then build something on top of it’s ashes.
We don’t have to be limited in our thinking or embrace the tyranny of ignorance. Instead, all of the original founders of TNG have chosen to focus on what we want to be and who we are outside of the stereotypes perpetuated by people like you.
Take the g0y challenge. Try to be who you are, a man with a same-sex “affection,” and do it without having to trash gays and anal sex. No, we don’t need to provide a critique, but we could. Can you provide a positive affirmation of the g0y community, or is it all just a negative reaction based on your stereotypes? What purpose do g0ys serve if not to bitch about how different they are from the malicious, deceitful and bigoted lies you spread about us?
i’d almost given up on this too, until “i see poop in you future”. LOLZ! LOLZ to the max!!!
i’d almost given up on this too, until “i see poop in you future”. LOLZ! LOLZ to the max!!!
g0ys are opposed to the oppositional nature of gay versus straight.
We feel that this aspect is alienating and the source of many problems among gay men.
Ed, all you do is assasinate others’ characters. None of us on the g0y side of the argument have name-called or attacked TNG. We’ve done nothing but present our views. You, on the other hand, have attacked.
I notice that you don’t deny that all the things we object to are indeed part of the gay scene.
We nothing to do with them… it’s that simple. We believe that anal sex, fetish, cruising, pnp, circuit parties, bathhouses, bdsm, leather daddies, etc. are alienating, self-loathing, and representations of internalized homophobia because they are fundamentally anti-intimate, addictive, numbing, and self-destructive.
If “straight” became synonymous with dominstrixes, swingers, one-night stands, orgies, we would denounce that category too.
New Man, you statement self-contradicts. You say you do not attack us, but then you say that anal sex, etc., represents internalized homophobia. Not only is it a false statement, but it is also an attack on all gays who enjoy anal sex as part of our sex lives. You are either self-deluded or a liar. Please at least admit you are attacking us.
Furthermore you have continued to conflate the word “gay” with a very limited set of behaviors that do not represent a full spectrum of gay living. We have contested this repeatedly, yet you seem completely incapable of absorbing this truth.
Finally, I notice that most of the responses coming from your camp read a lot alike, regardless of the name attached to the comment. I must conclude that one of two things must be happening: either most or all the comments that espouse your views were written by only one person adopting various names; or, even more tragic, they are written by a few men who have absorbed not only the thoughts of one person, but also his diction. If the latter is true, this speaks of a sheep-like mindset, and unworthy of argument. I’ve stated my case repeatedly, and (usually) quite well. I don’t expect you to agree, but I do expect you to realize you have attacked gay men, by words and attitude, and your posited disgust with activities you label “gay” is evidence of those attacks. Regardless, I too, have grown tired of this useless back-and-forth. You probably will want to have the last word. Have it and be damned.
I think New Man in Town makes some very good points. You don’t see the forest for the trees: instead of only hearing attacks and only defending gay dysfunction (and you have to admit that is what it is) why not try to understand where he is coming from. I truly believe a g0y-gay hybrid is the future of culturally defined homosexuality.
So, let’s get to work and examine a few things.
THE NEW MAN IN TOWN and ANONYMOUS
Your posts prove everything I said about you and the g0y movement. BTW I refuse to call you g0ys. If the zero represents “not,” then I am going to call you gnottys.
First, you repeat your “MALICIOUS, DECEITFUL AND BIGOTED LIES” (notice me denying? its the same language you ignored in my last post). If that is not clear enough for your limited, linear brains, then try this. You are judgmental liars. You are focusing on sexual behavior that is not specific to gay men. In your quest to blow a Kinsey 2, you missed the rest of his research.
The entire gnotty movement is an attack on gay men (and straight women who do anal). You stereotype and lump us all into one category and then you whine and complain because I use YOUR words from YOUR site and YOUR advocates to point out how ridiculous you are.
The truth is you are irrelevant. Mettachine, Ex-Gay, closet case, whatever you are, you the ones creating “gay vs. straight” dichotomies to justify your fetish. You guys have wet dreams thinking that you are superior to gay men. You are manipulative and you use that lie to seduce married men, heterosexual men, and young confused boys (read Patrick’s post and your website).
So, don’t pull the whiny, “you are attacking me” crap. You and yours have built your entire existence on stereotyping gay men. But the stuff you seem to believe says more about you and what you have either done or are thinking about doing than it does about us. If you choose to identify yourself as or defend gnottys, then you are aligning yourself with the g0y.org site and everything on it. You may get to pick-and-choose in your jerk off circles, but this is the real world. Your literature talks about gays being “spineless wussies,” “arse phuckers” and accuse us of spreading disease.
As far as I am concerned, gnottys are cowardly homophobes with daddy fetishes trying to seduce married men and young boys. You hide your activity because being secretive liars is all part of YOUR fetish. It gets you off. But hey, I’m not attacking you and the gnotty obsession with ass. I have done nothing but present my views, which are based on gnotty statements and the gnotty website.
Until you provide an explanation of the gnotty movement that DOES NOT involve contrasting your imaginary evil gays against straight people, no one is EVER going to take you seriously. Your attacks on gay men are a means to an end. You throw us under the bus as another tool in your arsenal to lure unsuspecting men into your snares. I HAVEN’T HEARD YOU DENY ANY OF THAT. So, “Can you provide a positive affirmation of the gnotty community, or is it all just a negative reaction based on your duplicitous stereotypes (i.e., lies)?” The ones you use to get yourselves laid.
PS–You have to have “character” for it to be assassinated.
Well, Ed, I don’t know when I accused you of evil, maliciousness or lies. Nor have you shown me that my views about what “gay” has become are “imaginary.”
I (and others here) have attempted to present our points of view about g0y verses gay.
Again, the positive position is simple… g0ys believe that same-sex attraction is common and not limited to gays.
We believe that all men who experience same sex attraction have more in common with each other than they do with the extremes of the so-called gay community.
We positively believe that the emphasis in same sex desire should be on intimacy, self-respect, mutual respect, love, honour and dignity.
We oppose gender bending, anal sex, fetish, anonymous cruising, orgies, etc. for all people, whether same-sex attracted or opposite sex attracted.
We object to the way that the so-called “gay community” promotes these things in every parade, publication, and the gay scene (bars, clubs, circuit parties) etc. because we believe these things are alienating and self-destructive aspects taken on by this so-called community because of the stigmas and alienation imposed upon it.
We offer an alternative model of what same sex attraction means… that it is not limited to one end of the Kinsey scale… that it is not limited to the publically identified expressions of “gay.”
You have been most rude… you’ve accused us of being pedophiles and wanting to get into the pants of married men. You’ve accused us of lying about what we feel and what we see.
I am not defending the g0ys.org website… if that’s what has you so upset… I am defending my own position and my own views. They are not exactly synonmous with the website.
At every point here, those of us on the g0y side have engaged in respectful and thoughtful dialog.
In return for this, Ed, you have accused us of spreading lies, being malicious, being pedophiles, being devious, etc.
I don’t believe that all gay-identified men are into fetish or alienating aspects. I believe that most are turned off by that.
I believe that gay has outlived its usefulness.
G0y is a better fit for me, than gay.
I don’t see how that makes me a liar, pedophile, malicious, or any of the things you accuse me of.
Very well said, New Man in Town.
Couldn’t have said it better myself, taking the G0y name doesn’t turn you into some sort of G0y website zombie. I took on the g0y name because I already HAD these views.
Good day to all you guys!
Okay New Man and Ryan
Let’s see if you practice what you preach. If taking the gnotty name doesn’t turn you into some sort of gnotty website zombie, then why, in the gnotty line of thinking (and I am being generous there) does identifying as gay mean that I am, according to New Man, somehow aligned with “self-loathing stigmas of fetish, anal sex, anonymous anti-intimate cruising, circuit parties, party and play, etc.”
And Mr. Reborn says, “Now gay is just a word used to blanket almost every fetish this world has to offer, from fisting to watersports to scat play, because simply meaning same sex attracted wasn’t good enough anymore.” Please document the source for that assertion.
Why is it okay for you to lump all gay men under those NEGATIVE, MALICIOUS STEREOTYPES, but I can’t lump you under the dogma espoused on the g0ys.org manifesto?
New Man, you say, “I am not defending the g0ys.org website…I am defending my own position and my own views. They are not exactly synonmous with the website.” I know. You arrogantly give yourself the ability to choose the parts you like and dismiss the rest. But you don’t allow gay men to do that? Why?
Where do you live that you have allowed yourselves to be brain washed into being so bigoted about gay people? It makes me wonder. The gay community is so frigging beautiful and diverse, and all you want to do is drown it in cherry picked behavior that can be found in both the heterosexual and homosexual communities.
You are all like Stepford ex-gays. Go back and look at the pro-gnotty posts. How many times do you guys ALL talk about ass and use the word fetish? You have memorized the same talking points and regurgitate them like they are independent thought.
But when you don’t think for yourself you miss a lot of stuff. You say that gays force others to fit into a mold, but My community is diverse and awesome and allows something we here in America call freedom. You want to give yours away? Be my guest.
You say that being gnotty is all about, “intimacy, self-respect, mutual respect, love, honour and dignity.” What a crock. You have demonstrated nothing but contempt for gay men, and it is only in your last post (New Man) that you have started to qualify your statements. Now all of a sudden you “oppose gender bending, anal sex, fetish, anonymous cruising, orgies, etc. for all people, whether same-sex attracted or opposite sex attracted.” That is about behavior and has nothing to do with being “gay.” Now you say, “I don’t believe that all gay-identified men are into fetish or alienating aspects. I believe that most are turned off by that.”
Where was that earlier? Go read the first post written by Patrick and tell me where that language is. Likewise, it is not in your earlier posts. Again, you get to pick an choose the parts of gnotty culture you want, but we don’t. That makes a lot of sense.
You condemn us while whining that, “having same-sex attractions doesn’t require you to wear the gay label, not when it no longer fits. That’s why I choose the g0y label, and probably why lots of guys have already chosen g0y.”
Be g0y. That’s fine, but an affirmative statement of your reasons to make that choice need not even mention the gay community. You can say, “I choose to be g0y because I am free to do so. I don’t feel like the gay label fits me. There’s nothing wrong with it. It just isn’t my thing.” If you said that, I would back you up 100%, but that isn’t the approach you are taking.
You say shitty stuff about us and then hide like cowards behind this playground notion that if you are “stating your views” you can say whatever you want about anyone. Well, you are WRONG! You are just as responsible for the things you say as anyone else.
And New Man, you are a liar. I NEVER EVER said gnottys were pedophiles. I repeated what your advocates and your website say. You gnottys have a thing for young men/boys. I can show you the quotes. Look at the photo they pulled from your site at the top of this page. All the young boys are paired off with older men. If you are going to saddle me with fisting because some gay men do it (straight people do it also), then I am going to unload every suspect and seemingly deviant act that I can identify in your manifesto on you.
And it’s not just your site. It’s in places all over the web. You are aligning yourself with a group of men who are preying on the insecurities and self-loathing of young men/boys, as well as married and unsuspecting heterosexual men. They exploit those vulnerabilities, pretend to befriend these men and then get them into bed. It is predatory behavior at its worst.
You don’t even know enough about what you are claiming to be to properly defend yourself. You have blindly bought into all the wholesome superficial crap, while just beneath the surface, you are providing aide and shelter to real sociopaths. LOL … and you don’t even know.
If you are going to dish it out, be ready to take it … Bro.
Fascinating. I haven’t once called you anything.
But so interesting that you pull out the virtual blood libel used against same-sex attracted men for centuries… that they recruit and are always looking to seduce straight men, in others words, you repeat the stigmas associated with same-sex attraction and which have been internalized in the gay scene at every turn.
And you do it without even a second thought. As though it was nothing to trot out such homophobia in service of your cause.
I am not a liar, of course… you more than implied that we were trying to bed underage males. That is false.
I can see the New Gay… it will fit in right with the other segments of your supposedly beautiful community:
Leather daddies in this part of the bar, drag queens over there… twinks and fashion victims in the middle, with the rich old trolls and rice queens nearby, here come the pnp and circuit boys with their gym bunnies in tow, showing off their skimpy outfits, and none of them wanting anything to do with one another… and then TNG we’ll call them THINGIES… the THINGIES will flippantly look down their noses at all the others believeing they are so “new” and “the latest” and “hip” and the big new fad” and they won’t sleep with anyone who doesn’t dress THINGY and heaven forbid some ordinary guy comes in and tries to just meet someone and actually experience the “beauty” of this community.
G0ys have never said all gay men were the problem. We have said that GAY is the problem… the identity, the notion of same-sex attraction being limited to an extreme is the problem.
Have your little world.. I’m sure it will continue… heaven forbid any of us should take it away from you.
But you’re very rude… and you do not make an actual case against us, you just use invective and scurrilous flippant disrespect and think it’s funny,.. somehow that seems so like the alienated gay.
You didn’t answer my question about the double standard.
Every allegation I made came from your posts. I used your words and the words of other gnottys. Did you look at the photo at the top of the page?
Again, you get to make a choice. You get to pick and choose but you deny me the same right.
You have gotten to the point were you are saying things that aren’t even relevant to the discussion at hand … “alienated gay”? What does that even mean.
The bottom line is that you refuse to even acknowledge that you are hurling negative stereotypes. Your claims are baseless, and other than a misrepresentation of the Kinsey scale, you offer no scientific or credible evidence to back up your bigotry (funny, not once have you denied being a bigot).
Read this: http://www.thenewgay.net/2008/12/gay-marriage-out-of-bedroom-and-into.html
I am bored with you.
You didn’t answer my question about the double standard.
Every allegation I made came from your posts. I used your words and the words of other gnottys. Did you look at the photo at the top of the page?
Again, you get to make a choice. You get to pick and choose but you deny me the same right.
You have gotten to the point were you are saying things that aren’t even relevant to the discussion at hand … “alienated gay”? What does that even mean.
The bottom line is that you refuse to even acknowledge that you are hurling negative stereotypes. Your claims are baseless, and other than a misrepresentation of the Kinsey scale, you offer no scientific or credible evidence to back up your bigotry (funny, not once have you denied being a bigot).
Read this: http://www.thenewgay.net/2008/12/gay-marriage-out-of-bedroom-and-into.html
I am bored with you.
For the last bleedin’ time.
G0ys argue that “gay” is the result of heterodominant stigmas attached to same-sex desire. These stigmas have forced men who are same-sex attracted to become alienated from themselves.
When “gay” meant simply the celebration of same-sex desire, it was unproblemmatic.
But unfortunately, over the years, it has taken on a variety of associations and symbolic meanings. More than that, these associations and symbolic meanings are present in every gay publication, gay personal ad sites, gay movies, gay bars, gay bathhouses, gay trails, gay porn, etc.
G0ys see these as expressions of the demeaning of same sex desire, and we believe that it fundamentally is the result of the hetero-dominant stigmas that have been attached to same sex desire.
We don’t wish to demean gay men. We wish them to see how they have been demeaned and how they have internalized these stigmas by engaging in alienating and self-destructive behaviours.
We know that gay men are not the problem themselves, but it is the misunderstanding of what same-sex desire is about that is at the heart of it. That misunderstanding started with the articulation of a dichotomy or opposition between gay and straight that began in earnest in the 19th century.
G0ys are not trying to get in married men’s pants. We’re trying to let married men know that there same sex desires do not force them into a dichotomous either-or position… that they can find other married men with whom they share a deep friendship and intimacy that may or may not lead to some sexual intimacy, ideally with honesty.
Likewise, we are not looking to provide a constant stream of muscular young men to have to use. Quite the opposite. We’re telling young men who have same-sex desires that they have anotehr option besides entering into a gay world where they will be immediately confronted with a stream of images which seem to us to be self-loathing and internalized homophobia.
For instance, imagine being a young man, age 21, struggling with being same-sex attracted, and deciding he wants to find another guy. So he checks out the personal ads in a local gay publication. He will be confronted with a whole host of titilating and misleading abbreviations from Top to FF to WS to TS to BB and so on. He will similar be confronted with people who are “willing to suck any cock” and who describe themselves as an “ass cunt ready to be filled.”
What is he going to think about this? There are titilating aspects to all of is, as he explores, but the dominant message over and over is no self-respect, no sense of the value of the persons involved in the sex act, only in the type (daddy, leather, bear, etc.) and the activity.
How is he to navigate that world?
G0ys want to provide a model for finding healthy ways to think about same-sex desire that don’t require any of us, regardless of age, to force ourselves into these molds which have come to dominate the gay scene ad nausea.
I am therefore not a bigot… I am alienated from what gay has become, and seeking an alternative myself to finding romance, love and mutual respect within a scene that seems more about alienation from self and others, than about connecting people together in mutual and satisfying and honourable ways.
I’m sorry if I’ve offended you, but I have not attacked gays, I’ve attacked what GAY has come to be dominated by.
landoftrolls, I have a bit of reading to do to catch up with the forum, but I must go back to your post on 12/8/08 and comment. You seem to be operating under the premise that ALL g0ys are physically attracted to or desire sexual intimacy with men. Many men who identify with the g0y philosophy have no desire for m2m sex, only a very close male friendship. Some g0ys, as such, identify primarily as heterosexual. Surprise! You see, g0ys is actually MORE inclusive (percentage-wise of the male population) than the gAy community. We just adhere to a whole different set of behavioral standards and in how we present ourselves to mainstream society. G0ys is also a community in which men from all orientations – hetero, bi and homosexual – can possibly come together, united by our very specific philosophy – based foundationally in Friends First; deep bonds; masculine respect; brotherhood; camaraderie; sound moral, medical and spiritual roots. To align with anything that runs counter to the deep-rooted basis of our movement would weaken all that we stand for. Perhaps if the gAy community took a similar stance with many of its factions, gAy would be a little more attractive – and respected. The fact that ~some~ of us are sexually attracted to men is a minor point, because many of us are NOT. Many g0y men are married and have families, and thus make a conscious decision to be faithful to their marriage vows and forego m2m sex, opting instead for deep friendship instead. Many g0ys are Kinsey-6, but do not identify with gAy. GAy has come to define a myriad of various lifestyles based on a sexual common denominator. Homosexual, not gAy, is what defines my orientation as a Kinsey-6 because there is nothing – in the many gAy lifestyles – I identify with, it is an inaccurate label…for me. G0y comes with an entire specific social, spiritual and medical philosophy, gAy does not. Except maybe for the collective anti-g0y mindset of many in forums such as this, RealJock and others which present a viewpoint that might further be mistaken to represent the majority of same-gender-attracted men. Such viewpoints – hardly a sound philosophical base with which to validate ‘gAy’ – actually damages the gAy cause; yet another reason for us (and many others) to choose not to be ‘included’. On that point, you also seem to insist on operating under the premise that g0ys are a faction WITHIN the gAy community that is ‘defecting’. I assure you, kind sir, we cannot do so, because we were never IN the gAy community, except maybe, individually, by accident, not being aware of an alternative. The fact that our prime demographic (possibly 50+% of all males), is much larger than the gAy community will ever be, also excludes us – by design. With respect to our hetero/bisexual brothers who identify as g0y, for us to agree that we are a sub-community of gAy would automatically exclude many g0ys from the definition. That’s not going to happen. We didn’t originate from within the gAy community. We were always the segment of the male population that was ‘outside’. Just as gAys did decades ago, we’re just simply making ourselves known, much to the gAy community’s irritation, because they so desperately desire us to be included in their census. [buzzer sounds!] Incorrect answer! Sorry, because of what gAy has become, which I believe Dev has so clearly presented elsewhere here, and because of the representation the gAy community condones as its spokespersons, the flow is going the other way, if anything.
To Michael 12/9/08…
on g0y=New Gay
There might have been an element of truth in that statement, if it weren’t for the fact that our demographic includes men that are not only those Kinsey-6’s that agree, but heterosexuals and bisexuals as well. Heterosexuals and Bisexuals can’t very easily be New Gays, but they can be g0ys quite easily. Sex between men is not a requirement to be g0y, but it is the inherent definition in ‘gAy’.
landoftrolls, are you really McGay or FastProf from the RealJock forums?
landoftrolls 12/13/08
I’m surprised you don’t see yourself in your own statements. You recite the gAy diversity acceptance mantra like you were born with it. Assuming, for arguments sake, that g0ys are brainwashed into a set pattern of thinking and speaking, aren’t you the pot calling the kettle black?
Ed 12/16/08
Let me see if I understand you correctly. We have your permission to state: “I choose to be g0y because I am free to do so. I don’t feel like the gay label fits me. There’s nothing wrong with it. It just isn’t my thing.”
I’m beginning to understand now. We just don’t have Ed’s permission to state WHY ‘it’ isn’t our thing, for the benefit of those here that might agree, even in some small manner, as I suspect some of TNG leadership might be closer to that viewpoint than Ed.
re: …some of TNG leadership might be closer to that viewpoint than Ed
clarification: g0y viewpoint about WHY ‘it’ isn’t our thing.
I think Patrick is right. The gay thing is a strait jacket. “Gay” stuff has actually ruined parts of my life. I’d rather just like who I like and do my thing.
I am an intelligent, critically thinking progressive. I’m not “closeted”, I’m not conservative, I’m not “self-loathing”. Those are precisely the reasons why the gay thing just feels unnatural.
I’m not looking for another box, another strait-jacket. I don’t need to fit into someone else’s rigid taxonomy of sexual order. And that is what “gay” feels like today.
Again, comments like this from disaffected reaffirm my notion that g0ys and TNG have the same mission.
My only complaint with the g0ys movement is that they, on their website, bash gays in order to prove their point. As someone who doesn’t identify as “gay” as much as “queer”, I still can’t help but feel offended by such bashing.
How I have sex is not the whole of my identity, but it is a part of it. When you say the way I have sex is disgusting and degrading, you are saying I am disgusting and degrading. And when you attack me in that way, I consider it hate speech. Now, as a gay man, I have received hate all my life, so what you are doing is nothing new. But what really burns is that at least some of this hate speech is coming from men attracted to men. You are spitting on your brothers; you are stabbing us in the back. You are no better than the so-called ex-gays and their Christianist sponsors.
I can tolerate a lot, but I cannot tolerate intolerance. Therefore, since the whole “g0y” idea is premised not just on refraining from certain kinds or sex (or avoiding femme behavior), but on attacking those who do have sex that way, or who are femme, I find your whole movement odious and to be resisted. If you had merely been content to say, “We don’t want to do that, or act that way,” we’d have little to contend about. But by attacking us, you drew first blood, and have gone beyond the pale.
Do you think I am exaggerating? On the g0y Facebook page, one man wrote: “Men, I feel like smacking a fem today…” When I read of your stance on gays, I have no trouble seeing the intolerance and oppression you represent, and I find you objectionable beyond what words can express.
The New Gay, in my humble opinion is about expanding the possibilities of what “gay” can be – about taking our culture beyond the disco and the bars. But it doesn’t mean rejecting those who love the disco, and it certainly doesn’t mean spitting on our gay brothers who are femme, or hating how some people have sex.
So go ahead and have your dry-humping masculinist fantasies – sex should be a free choice. But stop attacking your brothers, and stop degrading yourselves with your hatred of us. And yes, it is hatred, even if you choose not to believe it.
Oh, and NewGuy, diddling some woman’s husband – now that IS sick.
Being same sex attracted men doesn’t mean we stand for the same ideals, LandofTrolls. Misrepresented text bites aside, I agree with Patrick and The New Man in Town.
You can’t call yourself as something nobody has ever heard before (g0y) without going on to describe exactly what that means.
Being same sex attracted men doesn’t mean we stand for the same ideals, LandofTrolls. Misrepresented text bites aside, I agree with Patrick and The New Man in Town.
You can’t call yourself as something nobody has ever heard before (g0y) without going on to describe exactly what that means.
Let me again state the obvious in addressing your second point. There were a couple of ways the g0ys could have defined themselves without heaping opprobrium on their gay brothers. One is positive: “we are men into relationships, frotage, etc.” The other is negative, but not hateful: “we are not into femmes or anal.” Again, had you g0ys left the self-definition at that, we would not be arguing right now. But you chose to attack your gay brothers, and for that we defend ourselves. The g0y site simply spreads the same lies and misinformation about gay men that the Christianists, the Islamicists and the Fascists – does this count as a Godwin moment? – have for years. You deserve all the resistance we have given those groups, too.
As for your first point, ideals tend to get smashed against reality. You can call yourself g0y, or ex-gay or whatever, but if you are a man who is attracted to only men, then your just another fag like the rest of us. Get off your fucking high horse. Leave the preaching of hate to the Christianists and their ilk. Grow a pair and accept being gay – it’s a wonderful life it you will let it be.
Don’t you see? That’s the problem we’ve been talking about. You’re saying g0ys are spreading lies and misinformation yet, in the very next paragraph, you refer to yourself and the rest of the gay community as ‘fags’, obviously a self depreciating and hateful word. One Gay men simultaneously hate to have applied to them by others and regularly apply to themselves.
This lack of self respect and respect for other MEN (if we have anything in common, it’s that.) is part of the reason G0ys exists in the first place. It’s also part of the reason I choose to call myself G0y.
Don’t YOU see Ryan: I am a proud GAY man and I am a proud FAG. I chose that word deliberately. The appellation would only sting you if you let it, and YOU LET IT. The word FAG isn’t an insult when it comes from me. It’s a sign of brotherhood and affection. If you are ashamed of it, then I am ashamed of you. And this word I do mean as a sting: you, sir, are an idiot. You’ve let yourself be fooled by society and by these so-called “g0ys”. Wear the label if you wish, but if won’t change who you really are.
I really like cheese.
I'm glad to have found the g0ys philosophy. After reading thru these exchanges -the things discussed on the site under the essay "No Apology" ring more true than when this thread started -as I've seen every example of "gAy extremism" demonstrated here exactly as described in the g0ys essay. It's actually quite amusing to have read about the types of misrepresentations made about g0ys – & see them appear here -exactly like the g0ys site said. I think it speaks volumes -when a website says what it's opponents will say to misrepresent it & repeatedly hits the mark so accurately that it's a little bit spooky watching it happen over & over. What's even more amazing is that many of the people making the false assertions about what g0ys is about – claim that they have been on the website. If that's true – then why do they continue to make accusations about g0ys that are directly contradicted by the website? When your opponent has in his notes -the misrepresentations his opponent will make & the precise counters: the game is done. What is even more humorous is the arrogance that I see when several of the "gay promoters" make comments about the g0ys beliefs — as if the g0ys site wasn't comprehensive to have already addresses the issue! I am glad to have a term that I can apply to myself that sets me apart from the selfish, self-serving & self-centered agendas of callousness & bereft IQ's that have argued "pro-gay" agendas here. G0Y absolutely is the moral high-ground. And I challenge everyone who wants to know what it is about to check out the main website for themselves — because the gAy-shills here have proven that all they will do is misrepresent what g0ys is. And the astonishing (nearly psychic) fact is that the g0ys site outlines the LIES in advance & shows why the accusations are not g0y! Absolutely amazing! Gays got no game!
The Gays remind me of Black Power activists from the 60s…except those guys moved forward.
gAys have imprisoned themselves in the cave of “oppressed victim” mentality left over from high school gym class…and never moved on. Not everyone hates you or wants to attack you. So don’t feel hated and attacked all the time. that’s part of moving forward politically and socially.
g0y is ok. i like it and it doesn’t ask me to conform to some rigid taxonomy of sexuality designed to make other people feel comfortable. and that is how gAy feels today. sure i’m g0y but it does not mean i hate The Gays. it does not mean i’m threatened by how The Gays have their sex. can’t say i’ve thought about it much…til now.
have as much anal sex as you want. fem it up, butch it up. great. just b/c i’m not about that stuff doesn’t mean i don’t know you have the right to do so, it doesn’t mean i don’t understand and respect that freedom. it doesn’t mean i’m threatened if you do so.
some orthodox g0ys and some orthodox gAys can choose to duke it out but…why? i embrace transcendent heterodoxy as a simple “man who has sex with men” (MSM). in other words an unremarkable homosexual. nothing more, nothing less.
gAys hate much about gAy culture and are allowed to hate those things without being histrionically attacked. so, most g0ys just don’t care enough to love all the g0y stuff either. that’s just the point, do you get that? we just don’t care. we are who we are and need some room to breathe and do our thing.
debating all this is like arguing human evolution with a jehovah’s witness. or going to the church of scientology headquarters in LA to argue their theology (i.e. science fiction) is wrong.
pointless. just do your thing and that’s cool.
Folks, I apologize, specifically to Ryan and generally to all. I crossed a line, and I should not have called folks names. That goes against my philosophy, and I regret it.
Nevertheless, we must recognize the violence inherent in the g0y philosophy. If only you guys had defined yourselves positively, without calling us degraded, we’d have no issue. But when you call someone degraded, you invite violence upon him. You yourself may not do the violence, and you may even say you don’t want the violence to happen, but it will happen.
This kind of hate speech leads to violence all the time in our country and around the world. It is only a matter of time before someone subscribing to the g0y philosophy attacks a gay man (if it hasn’t happened already). I’ve already cited an instance of someone using violent speech against femmes on a g0y page.
Therefore we must resist you so-called g0ys. If only you had defined yourselves positively, things would be so different. But from here foreward the word “g0y” implies hatred of gays. We cannot tolerate that.
g0ys are trying to end the alienation involved in what gAy has become.
We want true intimacy, not anonymous porn-like 3-ways.
We want friendship first, not our cocks sucked by strangers.
We want same-sex desire to be seen as part of the overall feelings lots of men have for each other, and explorable in honest and generous ways, rather than furtive and sneaky and self-loathing ways.
We want to get to know the person before we know his cock size or whether he’s cut or uncut.
We seek to create an alternative means by which men can honourably connect, that doesn’t require that we reveal intimate details of ourselves to strangers, or in which someone will have no interest in even talking to you merely because you do or do not have facial hair.
I’ve had guys buy me a drink, seem friendly, interested, fun… then walk away without another word when they found out I didn’t have a foreskin.
I’ve had guys say to me “Why don’t you grow a goatee, I’m only interested in guys with facial hair.”
I’ve had strangers come up to me in bars and criticize who I was talking to because they weren’t attractive enough for me. Literally “why are you hanging out with that loser, you can do better.”
Bathhouses and park trails are full of married men lying to themselves and thinking this is their only option. Isn’t that more “sick” than the g0y philosophy of providing a model by which same-sex attracted men who are married can explore ways of being intimate and honest about their feelings? Hard as that might be, isn’t that better than living a lie and exposing your wife to potential deadly diseases because you haunt the trails?
Far from being g0y being “sick,” the gay scene has become sick… it glorifies “dirty” as if it were synonymous with same-sex desire… subscribe to a few gay lists… you’ll find yourself inundated with pictures of “frat boys being humiliated” and “straight boys first fisting” without complaint from anyone there.
Look through the list of activities in a gay porn film: fisting, felching, barebacking, rimming, watersports, orgies, 3-somes, etc.
It’s become a world promising gratification without substance. It is high time there was an alternative model to this.
G0ys are that model.
And I say AMEN!
I love being gay. It’s one of the things I like the most about myself. I’m grateful to the Creator for making me gay. I don’t like everything about gay culture, or everything that every gay man does, but I’m not going to eschew the appellation “gay” because of those things.
Rejection? We all get rejected, and that happens most of the time. Whether it’s the guy you think is cute who just won’t glance at you, or the man you’ve just had an intimate conversation with who then tells you he’s not that into you, it happens. And it hurts. But you move on; maybe you take some time off from the scene, or try a different approach. But changing the label of your identity? That’s not the way to deal with it. What will you do when a g0y rejects you? (And I guarantee one will, sooner or later.) Will you change your identity to gEy?
The Christianists have been saying the same things about the gays for years. And they claim to “hate the sin but love the sinner”. We all know that’s bullshit. It’s just plain hate. I’ve stopped talking with them about the subject. Why deal with people who hate you?
My first mistake was in thinking that I could have a dialogue with people whose minds are clouded with hate. It can’t be done, but I let myself get sucked into the vortex anyway. Oh well. My other mistake was to let my anger overrule my judgment, and say things more harshly than I should. I regret that, and I have said so.
I remain proud to be gay. The media images, the g0y BS, the online craziness – none of those will take that away from me.
re: landoftrolls
Point of clarification…
I am glad I’m homosexual but have never identified as “Gay”. I am uncomfortable with and embarrassed by most Gays and Gay Culture.
I do not hate gAys. I am comfortable avowing my homosexuality and admitting my ambivalence with gAys.
Do not confuse sexual orientation with cultural identity. Your “Creator” didn’t make you “Gay”, it made you homosexual. One does not choose sexual orientation. One does, however, choose cultural identity (i.e. “Gay”).
No no no no no – I’m not going to surrender the English language to self-loathing so-called “g0ys”. “Homosexual” equals “gay” and a homosexual man is a gay man, whether he wants to admit it or not. I was created gay. Period.
No no no no no – I’m not going to surrender the English language to self-loathing so-called “g0ys”. “Homosexual” equals “gay” and a homosexual man is a gay man, whether he wants to admit it or not. I was created gay. Period.
See, landoftrolls, you are exactly what we find objectionable.
Everyone who has same-sex desire as their primary desire must, ipso facto, be “gay” you insist.
But that is not true.
Gay is a cultural category, a symbol, not a physical reality.
Homosexual feelings, or same-sex desires are real and god-given.
But “gay” is what society and culture has done with such feelings, and it is a MISTAKE.
The desires are natural and god-given. But to confine them to an exclusive extreme club is the result of homophobia and a dichotomy which sees heterosexual and homosexual as opposites, whereas desire is actually on a continuum.
The mistake that “gay” is is the notion that same sex desire is limited to a small percentage of the population, not normal, and primarily expressed through effeminancy or extreme fetishized masculinity.
We are not self-loathing, we celebrate same-sex desire. We do not celelbrate fetish, alienation, cruising, anonymous anti-intimate forms of sexual expression, which is what “gay” has become, because of the mistake.
Oh landoftrolls, my point wasn’t about rejection. Everyone, regardless of their sexual desires, must face rejection.
My point was the stupidity that the “gAy” scene has become… where people are less important than “types” and every gay man is desperate to find just the right image and assumes that their dissatisfaction is the result of a) their own imperfection in meeting some silly idealized type of fetishized man, or b) the other guy not being “just so.”
It’s a sad alienated self-hating world.
Most men with same-sex attraction are not sad, alienated and self-hating… but they are stuck with trying to find something meaningful in this sad, alienated self-hating world called “gAy.”
We g0ys offer them another way to find love and companionship… but checking out of the stupidity altogether. Yes, I’m know for a fact that one faces rejection there too. The issue is not rejection, the issue is should I be forced to participate in what is essentially internalized homophobia by trying to play along with “gAy” or should I opt for something far healthier.
I choose the latter.
re: landoftrolls
“Homosexual” equals “gay” and a homosexual man is a gay man, whether he wants to admit it or not. I was created gay. Period.
My father loved NFL football, hunting and working on his car. However, none of those things had anything to do with his sexual attraction to my mother.
If, as you say, homosexual=gay I have one question:
What do Madonna and Will & Grace have to do with loving men?
"surrender the English language"? How about learning it?
It sounds to me like this little semantic debate is at the crux of the issue. LandOfTrolls says "gay = homosexual" and the g0ys who admit to homosexuality but refute being "gay" say that "gay = madonna."
The problem here is, that we in the TNG community are choosing to redefine gay from the inside out, while the g0ys are rejecting gay culture and trying to invent a new one.
Well, we're all homos here, so can't we figure out how to be allies, since the whole purpose of this site is to provide alternatives to Madonna, Will & Grace, appletinis and the like?
Not that there's anything wrong with that…
self-loathing so-called “g0ys”.
–landoftrolls
Again, how many times must I say it? I am neither closeted nor conservative nor self-loathing.
I am avowedly homosexual AND admittedly uncomfortable with Gay Culture.
I am not the conventional, cowering, easily dismissed villain you need me to be. Why is that so threatening and difficult to accept?
You know, landoftrolls, The Gays complain about Gay Culture all the time AND expect to control who can’t? You can’t expect others to ignore and enable that dysfunction as well. It doesn’t work that way.
re: Michael
g0ys who admit to homosexuality but refute being “gay”
1) I do not “admit to homosexuality”. As I have written twice on this thread I avow my homosexuality. I am a man who loves men without the fear and shame many on this thread are comfortable ascribing to me. What I “admit” is my severe ambivalence about the integrity and authenticity of “Gay” identity as currently constituted (and enforced).
2) Full disclosure: I had never heard of g0y until I read this TNG post on December 1st. Nonetheless, I have always felt an irrefutable distinction between sexual orientation and cultural identity. I have struggled to be an individual in the midst of Gays and straights who are constantly trying to impose an identity on all homosexuals.
3) Many of us are alienated by a Gay Orthodoxy that excludes any and all things narrowly and superficially defined as “Gay”. Until that definition expands considerably “Gay” will not come close to representing all homosexuality and many homosexuals will be divorced from it.
4) If one believes homosexual=gay let’s extend that logic. Are all black men born rapping thugs? Or, like the President-elect, are they all born Harvard Law educated Presidents of the United States? I think this question demonstrates how silly, futile and, yes, self-loathing it is to equate biology with learned behavior.
5) If you truly want other people’s respect, if you truly want equal rights then start respecting yourselves first by honoring the true diversity of all homosexuals staring you in the face. As long as we hate each other (i.e. ourselves) we will never coagulate into a movement to be reckoned with.
Michael,
I forgot possibly the most important point: you are correct. We all share the same sexual orientation and must recognize and respect each other in order to move forward.
I don't object to Gay Culture as some g0ys do. People need to be who they feel they are. It's cool. I have, however, consistently felt hostility from Gays for years simply because I'm not "Gay" just like them. It's ridiculous: I am perceived as hostile and met with hostility for doing nothing. You know, if I honestly do not like Madonna or Will & Grace it does not mean I hate The Gays. I also do not like American cars. Doesn't mean I hate America.
So, how to move forward?
Sorry guys, a typo from my 10:04am post…
3) Many of us are alienated by a Gay Orthodoxy that excludes any and all things not narrowly and superficially defined as “Gay”.
Michael:
Thank you for your reasoned response.
I would like to reiterate that, for us who think g0y, it is not simply a matter of criticizing gAy… it is a fundamentally different view of same-sex desire, not a semantic issue.
Same-sex desire is normal, common, present in the majority of men (62% according to Kinsey).
But due to cultural issues arising in the 19th century, same-sex desire became oppositional to opposite-sex desire. Homosexual feelings were relegated to an extreme… those men who were most visibly different than the mainstream… the gender benders, the theatre people, the colourful Oscar Wildes… became the face of same-sex desire.
This required such men to play up or become flamboyant, making themselves appear “harmless” and even “asexual” so as to be non-threatening.
As gAy moved into the 20th century, a reaction to this emerged in the extreme macho fag, the clone, the leatherman, etc. This became the second face of gAy, with its emphasis on potency and rough sex.
But where are the regular guys who feel same-sex attraction as a powerful part of themselves?
They remain invisible, and worse, they are expected to somehow fit in with this scene that seems unnatural to them.
Furthermore, we don’t want to define ourselves by our sexuality, to take on an identity… we neither want to be effeminant or flamboyant, nor prove our manhood by rough anonymous encounters.
We want honour, mutual respect, intimacy, friendship first… we may even want a bromance with a guy who doesn’t have same-sex attractions, but who clearly loves us and we them… no requirement of sex happening.
We don’t want same-sex attraction to be confined to the extreme, which dominates it through flamboyance and role playing of machismo.
We want to recognize and assert that same-sex attractions are normal, common, ordinary.
Reforming the gay scene from inside seems, in some way, pointless to me… because by definition you insist that we must value the flamboyance and role playing that to me is the result of self-loathing and internalized homophobia and the general culture’s misunderstanding of the nature of same sex desire.
Hi, Dev and Disaffected.
It sounds like, again, as I said above, we are all looking for the same thing but are approaching it from different directions. I just hope that the g0ys can see us (the TNG movement, if you will) as allies and not filthy disease-spreading buggerers who revel in our self-loathing.
Dev, in reading your most recent comment, I identified with EVERYTHING you said, except for the last paragraph.
Please, continue reading TNG and contribute to the other conversations we’re having on here. That’s one way to start moving forward, together.
The new spelling of gay will now be g-y. LOL!!!
Here's the take on the plea to "just be allies & get along". The g0ys movement has drawn a hard line to seperate itself from the elements of the gAy-male community that are "ung0y". This seperation is a stone-cold rejection of those aspects of gAy that g0ys find disrespectful to masculinity -& even torts against humanity (hence g0ys absolute rejection of analsex). Being COMPLICIT to moral-lack is also a character flaw that the g0ys site has made clear it rejects. If there is anything the g0ys site reveals with the stats & links posted is how dirty, dangerous & deadly the Anal-based sexual appatites of the "gAy" male community are. 9 out of every 10 people killed by AIDS took it up the tailpipe & there are HUGE numbers of people injured/infected with STD's other than AIDS who got it the same way. I don't think russian-roulette should be part of a school curriculum. The gAy community hasn't figured that out. They expect every guy to stuck a gun up his arse & pull the trigger & call it "sex". And when criticized – the gAys say that "not all gAys do it". Yeah. I know. The ones who don't are called "g0ys". And we know what the rest of the "gAy" male community is after. It's highlighted in every adult-themed book & movie that calls itself "gAy". I find it morally reprehensible. GAYS don't seems to be able to understand that doing things that hurt & kill people(even in the name of pleasure) is wrong. It must be a mental defect as well as a moral one. As a g0y man, I like the hard line. It lets me know where my g0y buds stand on the greater issues. So, NO: There will be no "alliance" between g0ys & gAys any more than light has any fellowship with darkness.
Here's the take on the plea to "just be allies & get along". The g0ys movement has drawn a hard line to seperate itself from the elements of the gAy-male community that are "ung0y". This seperation is a stone-cold rejection of those aspects of gAy that g0ys find disrespectful to masculinity -& even torts against humanity (hence g0ys absolute rejection of analsex). Being COMPLICIT to moral-lack is also a character flaw that the g0ys site has made clear it rejects. If there is anything the g0ys site reveals with the stats & links posted is how dirty, dangerous & deadly the Anal-based sexual appatites of the "gAy" male community are. 9 out of every 10 people killed by AIDS took it up the tailpipe & there are HUGE numbers of people injured/infected with STD's other than AIDS who got it the same way. I don't think russian-roulette should be part of a school curriculum. The gAy community hasn't figured that out. They expect every guy to stuck a gun up his arse & pull the trigger & call it "sex". And when criticized – the gAys say that "not all gAys do it". Yeah. I know. The ones who don't are called "g0ys". And we know what the rest of the "gAy" male community is after. It's highlighted in every adult-themed book & movie that calls itself "gAy". I find it morally reprehensible. GAYS don't seems to be able to understand that doing things that hurt & kill people(even in the name of pleasure) is wrong. It must be a mental defect as well as a moral one. As a g0y man, I like the hard line. It lets me know where my g0y buds stand on the greater issues. So, NO: There will be no "alliance" between g0ys & gAys any more than light has any fellowship with darkness.
Most recent Anonymous: Thanks for clearing that up for me. Now I don’t feel so bad that our readers find the g0ys.org site and all that comes with it so objectionable.
40,000 people die on America’s highways every year: driving is something that “hurts and kills people” yet it’s not “wrong?” Sex can be safe, or deadly. It depends on the precautions and the partners. Writing it off as amoral is at best, short-sighted, and at worst hateful.
The g0ys are rejecting mainstream gay culture the same as we are, but you guys are doing it in a very negative way. I’m not sad to hear that no alliance can be formed.
Most recent Anonymous: Thanks for clearing that up for me. Now I don’t feel so bad that our readers find the g0ys.org site and all that comes with it so objectionable.
40,000 people die on America’s highways every year: driving is something that “hurts and kills people” yet it’s not “wrong?” Sex can be safe, or deadly. It depends on the precautions and the partners. Writing it off as amoral is at best, short-sighted, and at worst hateful.
The g0ys are rejecting mainstream gay culture the same as we are, but you guys are doing it in a very negative way. I’m not sad to hear that no alliance can be formed.
re: Michael
It is irresponsible to accept that the most recent Anonymous speaks for all “g0ys”. It is equally irresponsible to accept that all men rejecting Gay identity and Gay Culture are “g0y”.
As an avowed homosexual I can safely say I am comfortable with neither “Gay” nor “g0y” as both are rigidly constructed constricting identities demanding an unattainable level of conformity.
As I have said earlier for us to move forward we must refuse the suffocating specificity of essentialism by honoring the true extant diversity of all homosexuals staring us in the face.
After all, that essentialism is imposed on us by a larger culture that seeks to control us. We perpetuate our own indenture by 1) accepting that extremely limited idea of what we are, and 2) attempting to modify that claustrophobic space with inventions like “g0y”.
Disaffected, obviously I don’t “accept that all men rejecting gay identity and gay culture are ‘g0y’”. That’s what this site is all about: rejecting the notion that we are what gay culture and the rest of the world say we are or should be.
I’d be interested in hearing more from you on this and other topics. Send me an email if you think you might want to submit to the site: michael@thenewgay.net
Re: LandofTrolls
Apology accepted, tempers were understandably flared.
Re: Latest Anonymous
You can’t be serious, can you? This in your face attitude is terribly reminiscent of how ‘gay’ usually is concerning public relations and the similar result is that you don’t succeed in winning people over. I’m not saying you to give up on your own personal beliefs in the matter but I’m pretty sure the G0y site NEVER refers to guys currently within the gay community as having a mental defect. Especially considering many gay men go on to become G0y when they discover that it’s an alternative, which is partly the point of the G0y movement in the first place.
Also, you might want to change that last analogy. Without light, darkness cannot exist and without darkness, light would not exist. The fact that their existence is inexplicably dependent on one another describes the nature of that alliance, which I’m sure you were not going for.
Note that I am NOT for compromising G0y ideals but I will NOT tolerate hate for the sake of hate.
G0ys cannot compromise on the issue of anal sex. It is undoable. If anal sex is essential to TNG, then there is little chance of being allies. People may need to drive cars, and in doing so accidents happen. But no one “needs” to be fucked up the bum.
We regard anal sex as anathema… it is damaging to the tissues lining the anus, it serves as a conduit of many diseases, it is anti-intimate, and it is unpleasurable for at least one partner (although some may convince themselves it is pleasurable, that is really just a head game in which they are psychologically excited, but not really experiencing genital pleasure). (Don’t repeat the silly prostate argument… my doctor gives me a prostate exam, a little seminal fluid always comes out of my penis… I am not experiencing any sexual pleasure when that happens, it’s a mechanical function… touch the prostate, seminal fluid moves, it only has one way to go, that’s up the urethra… happens to me every prostate exam… I don’t enjoy it and it is not orgasm.)
re: Michael
Regarding the last post by Dev in BC:
Dev’s post is a classic example why many men like me have de-accessioned themselves from “Gay” Life and “Gay” Culture entirely. Like I’ve said before as an avowed homosexual I am comfortable with neither “Gay” nor “g0y” because both are rigidly constructed identities demanding an unattainable level of conformity.
Although g0y supposedly exists outside and independent of Gay Culture it is precisely Gay Culture where this debate, among so many others, is happening. Many of us are struggling against an overwhelmingly corrosive Gay Fatigue. We have come to feel the idea of more arguing, defensive posturing (from all sides) and nasty back-and-forth between warring factions within Gay Culture (and without) about everything is simply an exhausting unnecessary indignity, no matter who is right. Yet, here I am for the sole reason I feel someone needs to say it.
I feel the same ambivalence about g0ys.org as I feel about The New Gay for the simple reason Audre Lorde gave me: you can’t tear down the master’s house with the master’s tools. Yes, there is a hegemonic sexually taxonomied culture turgidly surrounding us, exerting pressure to assimilate. Whether we perpetuate or modify the suffocating essentialism they impose upon us we’re just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. A game that is ultimately diminishing to us alone.
As Lorde also warned: “your silence will not protect you”. That is why I am speaking here. Some of us must move forward alone at the expense of “Gay” as currently constructed to save our sanity and the small sense of individuation we have left that Gay and g0y demand we surrender.
Footnote: Thank you for an invitation to write about this topic for TNG. It is, however, so large I don’t really know where to begin. I don’t really know my head won’t explode.
To disaffected:
I understand what you’re trying to say. I don’t think anybody has to buy any sort of “party line”.
What g0ys like me are interested in is the return of intimacy, honour, mutual respect, and masculinity (in the sense of a regular guy, not a super macho extreme image) to same-sex attraction.
We are also, please take this very seriously, we are also saying that same-sex attraction is NORMAL, COMMON, and ORDINARY for MOST MEN.
We do not see the need to proclaim a rigid identity or category. Rather, we are not proclaiming a category at all, but rather a way of thinking about same-sex attraction.
Think of g0y as more of a world view or a philosophy about same-sex attraction between men, rather than as an attempt at creating some sort of rigid, exclusive identity.
Our objection to anal sex is an attempt to move reignite what same-sex love between men is, in our view, all about… mutuality and intimacy.
g0ys are not expecting a level of conformity… we accept human frailty as a given, we accept that men do not live up to idealized types, we want men to stop feeling that they have to somehow find a niche in the gay world in order to find love.
We simply don’t celebrate anything and everything to do with same-sex behaviour and call it “beautiful diversity.”
As a cop, I continually observe that about 10% of the population causes about 90% of the problems. And, these same 10% constantly use bizarre logic to justify their criminal behavior. I see the same line of thinking in the "gay" male community, too.
Somebody recently posted the following: "40,000 people die on America's highways every year: driving is something that "hurts and kills people" yet it's not "wrong""
Actually, acts on the highway that are intentionally reckless are matters of CRIMINAL law. Of that 40,000+ number killed, — over 25,000 are killed by drunks — and drunks cause many more accidents. And that is simply (1) aspect of reckless driving. Of the 40,000 deaths — many people spend time in prison, lose their licenses & suffer injury themselves. And often ALL in the name of "having a good time". That analogy is one of the most stupid I've seen in a long time. But considerinbg the source – I'm not surprised in the least.
re Anonymous
Thank you Officer. You illustrate a very good point: by comparing driving to the Gay male community you demonstrate how there is a very real difference between sexual orientation and the dysfunctional aspects of cultural identity.
Still, I wonder how to find the 90% that are not causing all the problems.
Excellent points, Anonymous!
Yes, people need to get from one place to another, so they drive. That doesn’t mean they have to drive the wrong way, too fast, or without due respect or consideration of the other person.
Similarly, anal sex is like going down a street the wrong way. The need maybe for sex and intimacy, but turning it into anal sex is reckless and a total disregard for the other person.
Your analogy is right on!
I’m sorry, but there is nothing inherently reckless about anal sex, per se. Anal sex without condoms with an anonymous partner is completely reckless. Anal sex with a committed partner where both parties are disease free is completely innocuous. Anal sex doesn’t create HIV. It has to be there already. Period.
Secondly, I can’t let the “total disregard for the other person” statement stand unanswered. There is nothing inherently degrading about anal sex. You g0ys have to get over this, or at least accept the fact that we won’t be convinced by your unsupported arguments.
Someone at some point in this conversation complained that all sorts of pro-butt-sex people were joining the g0ys yahoo groups and arguing with them about the anal sex issue, and all the g0ys replied “this is our space, leave us alone.” Well, similarly, I have to say that TNG is a forum for people to freely share their ideas, and we accept people who love butt sex as much as people who don’t. However, we don’t accept people who try to force their perspectives on other people. If you’re anti butt-sex and find offensive a forum that is welcoming to buggerers, please find another website to post your myopic comments on.
I’ve come to this site via a g0y discussion group I belong to. I find this dialog very interesting but so polarized … few are speaking for the guys in the middle, the guys who happen to be looking for male intimacy but not necessarily sex, perhaps married, happily or not, perhaps bi, perhaps still searching for an identity. The thing that attracted me about the g0y thinking was not primarily the anti-anal stance (although, admittedly, I agreed with the idea); rather, it was the whole focus on building friendship and trust, the bond that needs to be in place that makes further male intimacy legitimate. This is clearly different from the media perception of guys who dig guys.
Our society is feminizing the role of men — women push us to “get in touch with our feelings”, to “show our feminine side”, little realizing that they cannot understand our feelings, that this kind of intimacy can only be achieved and shared with other guys. The result is that men who feel the need to be close to men are marginalized. We want to be intimate friends, loving friends, not friends in love or friends making love. When I reach out to hug and kiss my best buddy, it is not sexual, nor it is not something I have to hide from my wife, it is an expression of a special bond between two men. That is the g0y spirit – close friendships based on time and trust, where feelings can be discussed, where no topic is taboo, where a degree of physical expression – perhaps hugging and kissing, perhaps more depending on the situation – is considered normal. It’s as intimate and as gay as Carrie and Miranda and Samantha and Charlotte were in the brilliant “Sex and the City”. That, unfortunately, is the best media role model I can come up with for the kind of bonding friendship I am thinking of.
The g0y philosophy is clear that this kind of intimate friendship is the foundation of m2m relationships. In the g0y world, the decision to have sex is left to the individuals, however, time and trust is an essential pre-condition. The anti-anal part of the g0y philosophy, while apparently arbitrary to some, is congruent with the rest of the package. Unfortunately it seems to preoccupy some to the point that they forget the rest.
There is little room for ordinary guys to maintain intimate friendships in a society that forces us to choose sides (gay, bi, straight, whatever?). G0y is an alternative for men, irrespective of what their sexual bent is. It is about being a man in a society of men. I hope more guys in the middle come on board and speak up. I suspect there are a lot of them.
Considering how hyper-polarized the g0ys website and its creator are, why would a discussion about g0yism be anything but polarized? Overall, though, I find the whole g0y phenomenon utterly bizarre. I have no problem having very intimate friendships with men, gay or straight, and because I don’t have sex with my friends, the issue of anal sex is completely irrelevant. In the context of a monogamous sexual relationship, there is nothing inherently reckless, anti-intimacy, or even anti-masculine about anal sex. The g0y perspective on anal sex is just a weird fixation that appears to me to be grounded in religious brainwashing and feelings of deep inadequacy and insecurity about masculinity.
Anonymous,
Your statements carry no weight. 1) Because you obviously have no clue of the medical and health risk realities regarding anal sex vs. other sexual behaviors; 2) You obviously didn’t study the g0y site/philosophy in depth as your comments regarding ‘religion’ are inaccurate; 3) You exhibit the classic evidence of brainwashing by the gAy community. 4) You choose to remain anonymous, which I think is cowardly. Back up your statements with facts and qualify yourself.
Men keep dying of AIDS, youth 16-24 is being hardest hit with new infections, but the gAy community (and pro-anal straights and bi’s) skip merrily down the same path they have the last 35+ years since the advent of the disease, with apparently no clue or inclination to consider the possibility that changing their behavior might have an effect on eradicating the disease.
What still baffles me is that “The New Gays” claim to want to separate themselves from the ‘old’ way of gAy thinking, but they seem to welcome the same old ideas and death-styles guys like you and other apologists keep shoveling.
Great examples and role-modeling for a new generation of coming-out youth. Tell me guys, what else ‘new’ is anyone shoveling?
Anonymous,
“you don’t have sex with your friends”
Does that imply you have (anal) sex with complete strangers?
Now there’s a wise move.
Just wondering…
Michael,
“Someone at some point in this conversation complained that all sorts of pro-butt-sex people were joining the g0ys yahoo groups and arguing with them about the anal sex issue, and all the g0ys replied “this is our space, leave us alone.”
Your statement above is a little inaccurate. The g0y yahoo forums/groups clearly state they are for supportive discussion of the g0y philosophy and those who join are expected to know and respect that prior to joining.
If The New Gays wishes to preface their forums with the statement that only pro-anal discussion will be welcome and anti-anal perspectives are not tolerated, then I suspect g0ys will respectfully avoid posting their views.
But seeing as how The New Gays ‘welcomes all’, consider our views not an attack on those who disagree, but a statement for the benefit of those who patronize your forums who quite possibly might agree. One should not take the statements of either side of the issue in this forum as the decider of who is right or wrong. The lurkers who make the choice to explore g0ys, in their own privacy, are the ones who will decide for themselves whether it is a viable alternative. Why some men seem threatened to the point of hysteria, as if we are trying to shut down the entire gay community, baffles me. It’s ludicrous to get so offended simply because someone promotes an idea that happens to exclude a behavior that gays themselves admit ‘not all gays do’.
I understand your point regarding those who appear to try to ‘force’ their perspectives on others. I think if you reread your post, you’ll see that you are not quite as neutral as you might like to see yourself as. You clearly come out on the side of pro-anal, not in defending the act, but in siding with those who insist that anal IS THE definitive GAY WAY (and how DARE anyone challenge THAT!?) How about just let the forum take the course it does and let the readers decide?
There are clearly those men here that are doing exactly what happened in the Real Jock forums. A small pro-anal faction is claiming to speak for all heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual same-gender-attracted men, the majority of which, as Larry so eloquently presented, might not engage in or even be interested in any sex with men. Clearly the demographic that g0ys represent is potentially MUCH larger than the male segment of society gAys claim to represent (9-12%). Gays willingly and deliberately ignore and exclude the ’silent majority’ of the male population that exists outside the 100% straight segment as if they and they perspectives on same-gender-affection don’t count and worse, don’t exist.
It appears many men here wish to limit the same-gender-affection demographic to their own narrow view of what that means.
G0ys didn’t make the anti-anal stance the primary focus in this discussion. The author of the slanted article did.
The primary focus of g0ys is the Friends First perspective; camaraderie, brotherhood and representing the men ‘you guys’ exclude and ignore.
Having “anonymous” attached to my comment is no less anonymous than having “Patrick” next to your comment. For all we know, your real name could be Jack. But, if you feel so strongly about the cowardliness of maintaining anonymity, why are you part of a cult started by an anonymous coward? Why doesn’t the g0ys.org site owner have the balls to attach his real name to his concept?
What part of “In the context of a monogamous sexual relationship” do you not understand? HIV doesn’t just appear out of nowhere from the act of buttfucking. Infection rates for HIV and other STIs are on the rise because people are behaving irresponsibly. HIV is now regarded as a treatable chronic condition, so lots of men have gone back to having unprotected sex.
No, I do not have sex with strangers. I only have sex in a monogamous relationship, and right now, I am happily single.
seriously, you g0ys are exhausting. this whole bullshit about just wanting “male intimacy but not necessarily sex” is disingenuous lunacy and you fucking know it. so much of your argument is just double-talkey ranting and/or masking sad and/or ugly truths. i don’t believe half of what you say.
anyway, for the most part you all just come off as deeply insecure about your gender, which is totally understandable when you look at the ridiculous expectations that are hung upon people based on their gender. all gender is drag. i know you don’t believe that, but you should get out more. i find it more and more true the further i come along.
and to dev in bc (by far my favourite g0y) saying that anal sex is not valid (or whatever) because it’s not genital and all “in your head” proves that you must have a thing or two to learn about sex in general. even the g0ys have got to admit that like, 80 percent of what makes sex sex is what goes on “in your head”. it’s about what makes your dick hard, what makes you cum. all sorts of things do that to people, so lay the fuck off of people whose dicks get hard for reasons other than the reasons your dick gets hard. sheesh.
I do not think that is what I had in mind by guys in the middle speaking up. Well, if my words were lunacy, I could just take a deep breath and walk away from all of this and go back to my little cell and dream up something else. It all really did make sense to me. But disingenuous … now I am really miffed. Nowhere to go …
Yeah, maybe we are insecure about our gender because our gender is doing weird things – marching in pride parades in satin and boas and tutus – I cannot figure that one out.
Maybe we are insecure about our gender because when a man hugs a man and says “I love you” to him on TV it gets a laugh track.
Maybe we are insecure about our gender because it’s ok for women to celebrate their intimate friends but not men.
The fact remains that if we are even reading this stuff, we are guys who dig being with guys. We also understand our sexuality. Sure, a lot of it is in our heads, but a man’s sexuality is external. You do not have to go far to see that. G0ys understand that. We are very secure about our gender. So, as adam who isn’t here says, I should get out more”. Fine, where? Bars? Saunas? Sorry, too much gender ambiguity in these places.
Larry (from somewhere in Canada, eh)
“What still baffles me is that “The New Gays” claim to want to separate themselves from the ‘old’ way of gAy thinking, but they seem to welcome the same old ideas and death-styles guys like you and other apologists keep shoveling.”
–Patrick
I agree Patrick. I like what you write and I strongly agree with you re: “brainwashing by the gAy community”.
…but…
Anal sex does not kill gAy men (or “pro-anal straights and bi’s” and their wives) per se, it is unsafe sex that kills them.
Remember? Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.
“…the gAy community (and pro-anal straights and bi’s) skip merrily down the same path…with apparently no clue or inclination …that changing their behavior might have an effect on eradicating the disease.
Again, you are right and I’m glad you said it: barebacking, seed-loving, bug-chasing gAys are self-loathing, lazy, complacent and irresponsible…but safer sex with condoms and anti-HIV lubrication changes the equation (see below for study and link).
This is a gray area and most of us are stuck in the middle. Like I’ve said before: as an avowed homosexual I am comfortable with neither “gAy” nor “g0y” because both are rigidly constructed identities that demand an unattainable level of conformity.
Full disclosure: I like to fuck but haven’t for 2 years. Why? The gAys make my dick limp and I, like the g0ys, prefer to know and respect a guy before I put my dick in him, if we ever even do that, however long that takes. Also, if he’s not into it but we’re way into each other it’s cool. The anal sex does not have to happen cuz it’s the guy who is more important to me, not his ass.
Regardless of our personal beliefs and choices regarding anal sex the way out of this pandemic, whether gAy or g0y, is to not perpetuate the same ignorance and irresponsibility that got us into this health crisis in the first place.
Link for HIV-killing lube:
http://dir.salon.com/story/sex/feature/2002/01/16/lubes_hiv/
3 out of 22 tested brands reduce HIV replication by more than 99.9 percent: 1) Astroglide (also sold under the name Silken Secret), 2) Vagisil, and 3) ViAmor. They destroyed HIV in the white blood cells the virus infects. They also killed free HIV floating around in the semen.
Does anybody know how the fuck to use HTML tags? Help.
What!? “there is nothing inherently reckless about anal sex, per se.” ???
OK – so what does that poster know that the CDC & WHO doesn’t?
LMAO! What Stupidity!
According to stats gathered over 30 years by the major health organizations, anal sex is by FAR – hands down (50x) more apt to spread STD’s (STI’s) than ALL other sex acts combined!
Furthermore, guys who have NO STD’s continuously get them in the form of “NSU” (Non Specific Urethritis) from supposedly UNinfected partners do’in the butt-nasty. Why? Stuff that lives harmlessly in the arse often causes infection if it gets into a guy’s schlong! So much for the safety of “STD-free, monogamous, boofing, gay, partners”! Idiocy!
Oh, and while I’m mentioning stupidity: Somebody suggested that g0ys have an “anal-fetish” because the site focuses on denouncing analsex. It’s like saying that people against child porn have a fetish for it because they denounce it so. I know 1st graders who know that if you hate something that you don’t like it, either. This sort of pretzel logic is typical of the “gay crowd”. Mentally defective. Morally bankrupt.
Eskimos have -how many words- to describe the various conditions of “snow”? It seems to me that the big obtuse “camp of gays” have a problem with a new word that defines a large swatch of men who love men -OUTSIDE of the self-inflicted “gay” identity.
Let’s see that stupid statement again: “there is nothing inherently reckless about anal sex, per se.”!!!???
That’s sooooo begging to be shot-down -that I think it single-handedly loses the entire “gay” rant we’ve seen throughout this discussion.
G0YS clearly ARE the MORAL HIGH GR0UND!
We’re all a bunch of bloody homosexuals whether you want it up the ass or not! If you’re attracted to the same gender you’re a HOMOSEXUAL. Gay, g0y, queer whatever the fuck you want to label yourself. Instead of dividing ourselves we could put our heads together and get marriage by now, but instead we have pointless flame wars on the internet. I don’t know anything about this “g0y” thing, but it seems that both sides of the argument are lumping each other into stereotypes. It sickens me.
The end.
I wonder if this will get the same attention that the “Down-Low movement ” received. I’m looking at you, Oprah.
I wanna join the movement…Who wants 2 b my g0y-t0y??
R O T F L M A “0″ <—-{that’s a ZERO!}…get it?…
…Laughing My A** 0ff??
“Even a pawn can take out a queen.”
Dev in BC: “Same-sex desire is normal, common, present in the majority of men (62% according to Kinsey).”
I’m really curious, Dev. Where did you get that 62%? Because according to Sexual Behavior in the Human Male by Kinsey and his colleagues, 50% of (white, by the way) males are consciously erotically attracted to another man at least once between the ages of 16 and 55. That means, whether they act on that attraction or not. 37% have sexual relations to orgasm with another man at least once between the ages of 16 and 55. And so on, down to the 4% who are exclusively homosexual in their sexual outlet throughout their lives. But 50% are exclusively HETEROsexual throughout their lives. That does not describe “that sexual desire for most people is somewhere on a continuum between extreme homosexuality on one end and extreme heterosexuality on the other.” Most people, according to Kinsey, are monosexual throughout their lives, though the number who are nominally bisexual is fairly large (46% of males).
It’s misleading to speak of “extreme heterosexuality” or “extreme homosexuality” in this connection. The fact that you can map sexual experience on a line, as Kinsey did, doesn’t mean that individuals mapped at either end of the line are “extreme.” Not that there’s anything wrong with being extreme, but I think you’re being careless with language. (One could map experience with anal intercourse the same way, according to number of times you did it, which would make people who’ve never had anal sex as “extreme” as those who’ve had a lot of it.
I’m a gay man who has tried anal sex, doesn’t find it degrading, but doesn’t really enjoy it, so I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve done it in a long life. It’s not part of my sexual repertoire. But hugging, kissing, holding hands, sharing a bed, and so on are as much part of my sexual repertoire as direct genital stimulation. I agree that some gay men restrict themselves in the way they view sex, for example by focusing solely on genital contact, but evidently so do g0ys — just in different areas.
By the way, there is nothing especially new about what you’re describing. A few years ago on soc.motss, there was a little dust-up when some guy posted the same kind of ideas, with links to another site. I’d recommend Didier Eribon’s Insult and the Making of the Gay Self, which might give you some historical perspective. A number of our prominent forefathers considered themselves to be inverts or Uranians, but were horrified (or said they were) by the idea of penetration and never did it. Well, fine; people shouldn’t do what they don’t want to do. But they needn’t vilify the practices of others, which you’ve been doing here.
I agree with the point one of you made at some point, that young guys sorting out their sexuality should learn and know that they don’t have to do anal sex or any other kind of sex to be gay. But you know, a stress on anal sex is not really a gay thing: straight guys are obsessed with the butt and with butt-sex, which is why so much of their humor revolves around it. And humor is often a safety valve for anxiety, which is especially obvious when boys are joking about buttsex, about being screwed and being fucked as metaphors for being degraded or humiliated. There was an interesting post at Punkassblog recently about this. And straight guys also need to think about their own obsession with penetrating females.
As far as I can tell, the uneasiness of straight men with male-to-male affection has nothing to do with gays or with castrating women who try to make you get in touch with your feelings. It has to do with the way men construct masculinity by calling each other fags, with the meaning of “fags” poorly defined so as to create anxiety — a guy can never be sure that he isn’t a fag — and to structure dominance relationships in groups of males. That’s a boy’s game, and I’m not sure what can be done about it, but it means that boys are going to have to get rid of homophobia, and as long as you try to distance yourself from gays in the ways I’m seeing here, you haven’t gotten rid of it. During the Vietnam war it was often reported that American soldiers went nuts at the sight of Vietnamese soldiers (male of course) holding hands with each other in public (considered normal affection in Vietnam), which they believed meant the Vietnamese must be queers. It’s highly unlikely that many of our boys had ever seen two queers holding hands, so this reaction was solely a projection of their own anxieties. As is most homophobia.
(Maybe your 62% comes from the number of boys who have preadolescent sex play with other boys? Playing Doctor is fun, but it’s not sex and Kinsey didn’t include it in his scale.)
Is either Ted Haggard or Camille Paglia a supporter of this g0y thing?
well i’m mildly surprised by the whole g0y thing, but then again maybe not.
humans in general are prone to dispersing themselves into ever-more-exclusive categories. surely at some point there will be new denominations:
the g^y, who likes to give head but doesn’t kiss – g0ys are such fudge packers.
…then the g&y, who likes to give head, doesn’t kiss and doesn’t tenderly touch – g^ys are such sissy fags.
……then the g*y, who likes only to give hand jobs, doesn’t give head, doesn’t kiss and doesn’t tenderly touch – g&ys are such bitches.
seriously.
wish people stopped being so afraid of themselves and just accept the simplest fact: we are all human, and we are each in our own category. sexuality is such a broad term that mostly everything goes.
every category establishes stereotypes, which can be funny as hell when regarded as simply means of promoting humor through diversity, and dangerous as hell when they instigate to ridicule and violence. wish more people would just be.
This just makes me angry. I hate hypocrisy!
Eyrev
eyrev.cbcr@gmail.com
I had found g0y websites a good while back by accident. At first, it sounded ok. I, personally, have never understood anal sex. Have at it amongst yourselves, but my back door only opens outward. I *have* poked around a bit back there because so many gay guys dig it and I wondered what I was missing, but I’ll pass. On the other hand, I adore frotting! It’s the bee’s knees as far as I’m concerned and, so, when I found sites talking about g0yhood, I thought ‘well, hell! here you go!’. The sex side of things sounded right up my alley… and the emotional bits, as well.
That feeling was short lived. There really did seem to be a preocuppation with femininity and being gay. I don’t specifically remember feeling attacked personally, although I did get a self-loathing-by-association vibe coming from what I was reading. It seemed like self-definition through degrading others.
I get *not* feeling affinity for gay culture. Even disdain for large parts of it. I really do. I was never into it. I happen to have some gay friends but I’ve never looked for gay friends because, quite frankly, I don’t give a damn who you have sex with unless I’m having sex with you, and then it’s just me and you anyway. It doesn’t burn when I urinate and I like it that way, thank you very much. I’ve had sex with four guys in 10 years (I’m 27), three of them having been boyfriends and the other a good friend. I was with one of them for six years. For me, sex is something that happens with a person I have feelings for. I, myself, would feel cheap picking someone up for sex. Maybe I have hang-ups, but there it is. I don’t like clubs (gay, straight or otherwise) because of the attitude you often find in them and because lots of people I know who frequent clubs (gay, straight or otherwise) are lecherous. I don’t like hyper-feminine/masculine guys because I think they’re annoying and artificial… but the same is true for the lady-folk. I think there’s profound superficiality that exist to a gross degree in the most visible parts of gay culture. And so on, blah blah blah.
That said, I’m gay. Like it or not, gay has come to mean homosexual. I don’t like the stereotypes that come with it, but stereotypes have some basis in fact, and I still say ‘I’m gay. In that sense, I guess I do take it up the ass. But I identify as gay for a reason. I have friends who have been beaten within inches of their lives. Thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster, everyone is still alive, but they were luckier than other people have been. I was called a faggot before I ever admitted I was gay to myself, let alone even considered acting on it. I’ve known people who were driven from their homes for not being (and I loathe using language like this, but it fits) hetero-normative. I don’t think shit like that will EVER come close to stopping until the world at large can connect to gay people, and, for that reason, I tell people I’m gay.
I don’t identify with gay culture but I do feel solidarity will be productive in the long run. If g0ys are not sexually active with other guys, then great, I get it. It’s the g0ys who bugger their brothers that make me scratch my head. A label is a label, and what better way to dispel a label than to adopt it and then blow it to pieces?
As a bit of an aside, I think the only reason there seems to be more “deviant” sexual behavior amongst gay men that straight men is that men are, generally speaking, less sexually inhibited. When you take women, who are (for all appearances) generally the more sexually conservation half (or third or whatever) of an equation, things *can* get… interesting! “Deviance” is not the sole domain of gays, is what I’m trying to say.
[...] post is by Jesse Janson onYou can call yourself “g0y” or Ex-gay or “Just For Men” or Super-Twink Eradicator, or [...]
Wow, the first time I’ve seen this issue outside of the sick and twisted sites of the g0ys themselves! I don’t recall how I came across the g0y movement but I have been aware of it for quite some time. I have read through all the drivel on the websites and find them to be pretty damned sick. They lost me at the harping on anal sex, wait, obsessing over anal sex. Like an AA member obsesses over booze! Most appear to be married although I see little mention of women at all. What was absolutely clear was that they are married men who meet up On the down low to suck each other off and generally have some deep hatred for gay culture. These are fag bashers! Let me restate- THESE ARE FAG BASHERS!!!!! I personally don’t feel very connected to gay culture in general, and happen to be a married bisexual. I have experienced some descrimination from the gay community to be sure, but find this kind of hatred disturbing. There is something almost predatory about this g0y movement. Lets get this straight, if you are hooking up with anonymous guys to suck each other off you are just using them for sex. It really dosen’t matter what hole you are using! On top of that it is unconscionable to expose ones spouse or signifegant other to such risky behavior.
The Yahoo sites. I joined a few once to try to find out more, I was curious what these g0ys talk about. There were absolutely no messages EVER posted on any of these sites other than the moderators rantings. I was curious what form of relationship the g0ys found themselves in. How they came to such drastic opinions about anal sex. I really wanted to get to ask some questions but the yahoo sites were very one way , which I suspect is typical of the g0ys .
My impression is that this is a very anti-gay group that oddly enough is aimed at gay men. It has its roots in the religious right and the sites are rife with very hateful language. I have also seen one site which professes that age of consent should be 13!!!! This based on some biblical nonsense. These people are unstable!
I think you are sick!
Alfred Ricco
awricco@juno.com
Non-gay Christian men who just happen to blow other dudes
ROFLMAO!!!!
“the “hey bro” frat-boy tone of it all. … I know these cues are supposed to be read as “straight acting” but honestly, I’ve never in my life met a straight guy who talked that way. And if I ever did I would immediately suspect he was a fag.”
“more sinister aspect, is the blatant misogyny. I wouldn’t expect women to be discussed very much on a site encouraging guys to rub their dicks together. … Fine in their place, and they certainly serve a purpose, but you know…lesser. That old story.”
“I could go on, but I don’t want get all g0yishly longwinded. … If g0y.org is any indication, the movement may not be welcoming to the “fairer” among us, but is very windbag friendly.”
I just stumbled upon this blog this morning. Boy do I have a story to tell about the “G0YS”! As soon as I finish it, I should hopefully have it here by Wednesday at the latest! Stay tuned for another exciting episode of “G0ys will be G0ys! :)
WOW! I see I’m too late to try to set the record “str8″. After reading all the posts on here (even though they are a year old or so,) Most of you summed everything up! I “infiltraded” the G0Y website and became a “contributing member.” I did not know that I was in a “chat room” for older married men looking for their “cake and eat it too”. Shame on them for getting married and cheating their spouse out of a full life of bliss with someone who TRULY cared about THEM and not some joker looking for M2M on the side! Can you say “Sen. Craig”? I am a MAN and I have lived by the so called G0Y lifestyle all my 40+ years. I was G0Y before they knew what it ment. I am in a relationship with my partner now for going on 14 years. The “G0Y’ website does NOT have a monopoly on the “lifestyle”. In a way, you could call me G0Y but, I feel like a “fake gay”. (I’m willing to meet them half way if they admit to it also!) I may not engage in some of the practices the G0Y website presents, but, I do not engage in the radical thinking of them either. Masculinity is universal amongst homosexuals just as [some] feminine men are straight. Not all feminine men are gay and vice-versa. If you think I know all the answers, you will not find them here. I just know that G0Y is not for me and I do not care to have the labeling of my lifestyle known as such. I am a gay man and I am comfortable in my own skin. I just wish more people could be honest, not only with themselves but others. The G0y “movement” express is not going anywhere. There are real gay people living the life now and we do not need a different label…
On 17 December 2008 at 8:21 pm
The New Man in Town states:
“G0ys are not trying to get in married men’s pants. We’re trying to let married men know that there same sex desires do not force them into a dichotomous either-or position… that they can find other married men with whom they share a deep friendship and intimacy that may or may not lead to some sexual intimacy, ideally with honesty.”
I know that I am late in perusing this blog, but, one of the things about G0Ys is the above sentence. How can you even THINK of being with another man let alone a married one and state that it is “ideally with HONESTY!!!???”
WHAT about the WOMEN you are with!!!? Does SHE not DESERVE some honesty also?
G0Y is a cover [written "closet"]for guys who are not comfortable in their own skin and feel as if they can get married and have a little on the side. Gay is being TRUE to yourself and HONEST with OTHERS in your life. Plain and simple. I do not participate in the anal/drag/etc, etc but, G0Y is way too out of this world for me to even wonder about. I will not argue with anyone about how they feel or how they act. All I know is that gay is gay, str8 is str8 and anything in between is OK with two consenting adults as long as no one else has taken their vows. PLAIN AND SIMPLE! I am NOT G0Y, I am not “gay” as they think we all are, I am a human being and I live my life with the respect of being so. By the way, “The new man in town” sounds to me like the G0Ys Grand Poobah VEH. Their almighty >sicwink-wink<
You know,…if all that G0Ys want to do is find a good buddy, why talk about all the sex!? Patrick states that: “Many men who identify with the g0y philosophy have no desire for m2m sex, only a very close male friendship. Some g0ys, as such, identify primarily as heterosexual. Surprise!” SURPRISE!, if you like SSA, YOU ARE NOT HETEROSEXUAL! You are Bi @ least! Yes, that IS a surprise knowing that most of the G0Y website lures people into the sex bit! Why even mention it [sex, arse plugging, etc...]if you are just looking for “A few good buds”? The place is so disfunctional it makes me want to barf. So screwed up, thinking they have a cause [in which they just may] but, not for me and others I’ve shown. I came out into the “gay” world seeing what was there and turned out OK. You can’t “mentor/nourish” everyone. They must make their own decisions. It’s great that you would like to offer an “alternative” but, like I stated previously, you are submitting information via the web that can be just as bad or WORSE on young minds. Keep the closet door shut and leave us real so called (your term) “G0YS” alone. We do not need your title and loathing. The G0Y express in out of gas…
Wow. Just when I thought I’d heard everything, along comes this nonsense.
I love the justification by Patrick about how many Goys (I can’t even type it without shuddering) are married with “Families.”
This whole “Movement” is just another (weak) cover for self-haters who are too weak or stupid to just be themselves.
I love the internet: it takes separation to a NEW level by enabling these self-haters to hang with each other and convince themselves that their new “Movement” is a real thing.
For now, I’ll just try and forget that these people even exist: as a gay man, they don’t “Agree” with who I am (and actually think they’re BETTER than the average Gay), so sorry, I’m not about to support your “Goyness.”
A-Goy-Ing.
One more thing: I’m 100% gay and I have a GREAT group of straight friends that I would NEVER EVER have sex with.
I think the defination of a Goy is: “A Gay Guy who can’t make stright friends.”
It’s all a bunch of hooey. Let’s divide even MORE so that we can be separated by the forces that all wants us dead: Gay or Goy!
I fully agree that it’s all a bit nonsensical but who am i to judge. These g0ys have some of the same psychological issues that pro-life people have, they can’t accept reality on many levels. I found your comparison of the site to a 9-11 conspiracy theory rant blog hilarious because it totally is. I certainly couldn’t make it through that manifesto it’s so visually appalling and assaulting i was merely able to read three or four of their alleged stances.
I’ve been keeping an eye on the gr0ups in “g0ys” and now know that I have seen enough. They belittle women (and the others spouses) when they get caught and just like the rest of them, they feel like they are correct to have the feelings they do. They try to utilize the Torah and the Bible to state their case(s). The problem still remains. If marrage is so sacred, why do they insist on having a “g0yfriend”? What if the tables were turned and the wifey wanted a g0ilfriend? Would they be accepting of that? Also, they reference a so-called research article that states something along the line of “[the] swallowing of MORE semen makes you immune to AIDS!” Go for it I say but, don’t believe everything on the web is truthful. Have a g00d life. Hope it works out for you.
Dom’t like the BUTT action but( not punn) like the men action.
Why can’t we just “love each other?
Thank you for your intellectual and humorous read on this “phenomenon.” Whether it’ll help or hurt in the long run is anyone’s guess. The one thing that strikes me about this subject that you didn’t mention is the viewpoint that gays (as seen in porn) are not friends, treat one another like meat and devalue each other through pervy sex. (Not much different from straight porn, is it?) If porn or gay bars were your bench mark for what a gay man is or what gay relationships are like, then it’s easy to see how g0ys have turned waxing nostalgic for college roommate Biff, good friend and play pal into a lifestyle. They didn’t know gay men are loyal, loving and intimate as friends and lovers. Perhaps they never had the courage to try, or never knew two men who lived together or had friends over for dinner, and the only place to meet other men looking for sex was the local rest stop. Perhaps gays need to be more open regarding their intimate and loving relationships (the funny queen is okay in public with his broach and shrieking laugh, but don’t kiss your honey on the lips at the mall!) Hmmmm, I feel a film script coming on….
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