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10 November 2008, 4:35 pm 96 Comments

Commentary: No Fats or Fems: A Gay Culture that is at War with Itself


Jeremy, a musician and writer in Tampa, Florida, submits this original post about his observations on the perpetuation of gay stereotypes and our acceptance of each other.

It has always bothered me how mean we are to each other, but I didn’t realize quite how much until recently. In Florida, where I live, 62% of the voters passed Amendment Two. It was disheartening to me that 62% of the state that I live in does not think I should have equal rights. Even more disturbing is on election night, after hearing the amendment passed, I logged into the gay chat rooms and browsed over the internet personal ads full of negative messages. As much as the majority of the general public may think unfavorably of us, it seems even more so we think unfavorably of each other. IT HAS GOT TO STOP.

Of the fifty ads I browsed, over 80% contained a negative message. Some examples:

  • No fat guys
  • No feminine guys
  • I am fit UB2 or don’t bother talking to me
  • I already have a father, if over 22 don’t bother
  • 34 y/o seeks twink. Willing to pay.
  • Not racist, but no chocolate or rice

It broke my heart to see the majority of my peers were filling their limited profile space not with what they were looking for in a partner, but instead what they were NOT looking for. Being a 33 year old gay male, I can feel the negativity at clubs as well as online. It may be my own insecurities, but whenever I am around a lot of attractive men I feel like the nerdy kid in gym class. The weirdo. The one that people pass over when picking their team. And I’m not even a fat or a femme!

Now, more than ever, the gay culture needs to get together and start loving and respecting each other. The language we use to dismiss and degrade one another needs to be banished and discouraged. We need to stop using terms like fats, femmes, twinks, and trolls. We need to get together. We need to accept, love, and develop friendships with each other. If the gay community could get its act together and stop being so segregated, imagine the statement that could be made nationally!

It is important for us to stop using the language we are using. We must stop dehumanizing people because they don’t go to the gym five days a week. Stop thinking so negatively of feminine behavior. Let’s embrace and celebrate both the feminine and masculine sides of ourselves. I see so many of my gay male peers trying ever so hard to prove their masculinity to both themselves and their perspective partners. Why is machismo so celebratory? I feel it goes back to our culture’s subtle sexist view of females. It seems that to be gay and feminine is frowned upon. The basis of most gay-themed jokes has its character engaging in feminine behavior. Why is it funny for a man to have stereotypically feminine characteristics? So what? In the year 2008 why are we still creating such a narrow set of behavioral expectations?

Not only does the heterosexual public seem to look negatively on a lot of stereotypically gay behavior, we do so amongst ourselves. Why all this effort to appear “not gay”? Why the obsession with being a “jock” or “stud” or “straight acting”? Let’s celebrate our own nuances and love the variety within ourselves. Can we do it or are we going to hate and degrade anyone who is not 6’1” and one 145 pounds with blonde hair?

This is my call for all fellow gay people to stop being at odds with each other. WE NEED TO ACCEPT AND LOVE EACH OTHER FOR WHO WE ALL ARE. Let’s quit excluding and degrading each other. I want the country to accept us, but before that, I want us to accept ourselves. Fat, thin, black, white, masculine, feminine. We must all be one, now more than ever.


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96 Comments »

  • clearlyhere said:

    I know, I get a similar feeling when it come to stereotypical gay things. Like we are all supposed to disprove stereotypes and not doing so is looked downed upon. I hate that I get embarrassed mentioning that I like musicals. I sing show tunes, go to see live productions, and there is nothing wrong with that.

  • Andrew Pendleton said:

    A fundamental precept of the gay rights movement is that we, as gay people, don’t control who we are attracted to. On one level, this is just a discussion about gender, but I’m not sure it’s any more reasonable to expect guys to be attracted to a certain physical archetype (twinks, bears, jocks, etc.) or even ethnic group than it is to expect them to be attracted to women. Attraction, to a large extent, is a visceral response, and either it’s there or it’s not.

    I agree that “no fats or femmes” and “no chocolate or rice” are overly negative, but sites like Manhunt, Craigslist, etc., serve primarily to facilitate the efficient arrangement of hookups, and I suppose everyone wastes time by beating around the bush, as it were, and writing to people with whom they don’t have a chance of making a connection. Also, I’m not sure that comparable positive assertions (e.g., “white twinks only”) are any better.

  • amory said:

    You were cruising hook-up sites. I don’t see the connection between that and gay marriage rights at all. A more relevant argument could be made about whether or not we are respecting each other when using hook-up sites at all. But i don’t see any problem in indicating what I’m interested in when posting to manhunt. Just like its not misogynistic of me to indicate “no women” (I’m gay) i also don’t think its offense for me to indicate that I don’t want someone old or overweight. If I’m cruising for sex, I want to hook-up with someone that turns me on, not someone i have a mental connection with.

    This sounds more to me like the rant of somebody who is insecure about their own appearance. Trust me man, no matter how you look, there’s someone on manhunt that wants to bang you.

  • Jack said:

    @Andrew and @amory: I find it more interesting that you took the statements “gay chat rooms” and “internet personal ads” and immediately assumed that he was looking at Craigslist and Manhunt. While less prevalent on other sites like Match, OkCupid, etc. where ostensibly people are looking for more than just sex, these sentiments are seen there as well.

    You are right that physical attraction is important, but it was basically the macho bravado of a number of American subcultures which did us in on these amendments. So it isn’t unreasonable for someone, anyone, either secure or insecure, to point out the hypocrisy in complaining about the homophobia of others, when there’s plenty of internalized homophobia to spread around.

  • Andrew Pendleton said:

    @Jack: you’re right that dating sites also have these sentiments, but they tend, I think, to lean much more towards “I’m smart, funny, ambitious, and like long walks on the beach.” The author didn’t specify which sites he was visiting, but he did say 80% of the ads he viewed contained the sorts of messages of which his list was apparently a representative sample. So we’re not talking about Match.com. We’re talking about a hookup site.

    And no, I don’t think only being attracted to a certain subset of gay men is either hypocritical or representative of internalized homophobia. I’d probably be a little sketched out if someone twice my age hit on me at a bar, for example, and it would have nothing to do with my attitudes about either my own sexuality or his. It’s just not what I’m attracted to, and again, I think gays, of all people, have about had their fill of having to defend themselves for that.

  • Ssassynfat said:

    Truth be told, there are a lot of people that I don’t want to have sex with. It could be the way they look, the way they treat me or the way they present themselves. I doubt that bothers anyone. I don’t answer ads that say “no fats.” It’s a waste of my time. There’s something else going on here and we need to figure it out.

    This is not about sex. This is about respect. If I’m not your idea of a dream date that’s fine. A line is crossed, however, when it is conveyed in no uncertain terms that I’m not a worthwhile person and an embarrassment to gaydom because you don’t want to have sex with me and you can’t imagine that anyone, anywhere, ever would. Boys will be boys and here we are bringing something home from out there in straight world. I’m sure you’ve heard of “gay panic.” Google it for yourself but here is the Wiki version:

    According to the gay panic defense, the defendant claims that he or she was the object of romantic or sexual advances by the victim. The defendant found the propositions so offensive and frightening that it brought on a psychotic state characterized by unusual violence.

    Usually “fat, fem and troll panic” is confined to verbal violence with a little pushing and shoving but you never know. Do you see the connection with the line of reasoning that keeps Don”t Ask-Don’t tell on the books? Macho het soldiers (sailors, marines and airmen) are afraid that a queer will “look” at them in the shower. At least that’s the brass’ story and they’re sticking to it.

    Queers in the midst of a “fat panic” episode freak out because they’re afraid I’ll come on to them. They’re grossed out that someone they don’t think is adequate or appropriate as a sex partner finds them attractive and decide to lash out. Exactly whose insecurities are marching proudly across the landscape here? Won’t a simple “No Thanks” work?

    The “slash and burn” protocol in gay dating doesn’t work, boys, it’s time to give it up. If you think the troll over there is looking at you I suggest you get over yourself and move on. Convince me you’d don’t love the attention. Your “fat, troll or fem panic” reaction is inappropriate and disingenuous.

  • Anonymous said:

    Sassy, I think you’re being a bit unfair about people’s reactions and this conversation is getting really complicated. Non-attraction panic also occurs because there actually are people who are so obliviously horny that they cannot recognize hints or even hear the word “no” and, unfortunately, must be told to bugger off. We all have stories of that guy who won’t take no for an answer or know friends who’ve been raped or had sex forced on them, but don’t come forward because the gay world allows for far too much sexual aggression/alcohol consumption to pass as “not a big deal.” I agree with you that people must be treated respectfully, UNLESS they are taking too many liberties and forcing their sexuality on the object of their desire.

  • Gavin said:

    “You were cruising hook-up sites. I don’t see the connection between that and gay marriage rights at all. A more relevant argument could be made about whether or not we are respecting each other when using hook-up sites at all. But i don’t see any problem in indicating what I’m interested in when posting to manhunt.”

    I think his point was that while we’re dealing with the aftermath of three ballot initiatives that were voted by a plurality in several states and dealing with the external issues of bigotry against us as a community by a segment of the population, we shouldn’t cast a blind eye to behaviors within our community that lead to a since of ostracization within. I see no failure in the logic that he is making. The point is that many people within the gay community find it readily okay to make disparaging remarks about others based on a number of factors including race, age, and perceived attitudes about physical appearance.

    I don’t disparage, nor disagree with, the idea that there are many factors that affect who and what we find attractive in partners. However, there are better ways to articulate those things than in terms that are demeaning to those who don’t fit our own personal criteria without having to beat around the bush. I think the criticism is concerning specific language and attitudes that are all to common that say it’s okay to simply treat someone as if they’re less than human because they don’t fulfill our criteria of what we find attractive.

  • copp3rred said:

    Who’s the “skinny-fat” twink in the picture?

    More seriously, youth, such as it is, is by default arrogant, self-absorbed and delusional about their own attraction. In time this fades to bitterness and too many drinks at JR’s 5 nights a week, spawned by dealing with the mundane nature of life, their dreams crushed and the DC bureaucracy. Sure there are exceptions to this rule, but for the most part I hated the young’uns when I was their age and consider their dismissal of other to be beneath me to get riled up about.

    Find you niche. Besides websites of that nature are about efficiency, and efficiency is no friend to long getting to know you sessions.

  • Anonymous said:

    I’m neither fat nor fem and I’m a very nice guy. Yet, I am met with hostility by gay men who behave as though they are very angry at me.

    The gay guys who “act” masculine aren’t, as you say, celebrating machismo. They’re pretending because they are incredibly insecure. There’s a big difference between being a man and just looking like one. To be honest with you the “gay” version of masculine is pretty damn gay, not “manly” at all.

    The normal guys like me who don’t have the need to perform in The Big Gay Gender Carnival are ignored by the insecure “Supermen” for not being “masculine” enough and resented by the fems for being too masculine. That’s why good guys like me (the husbands you all dream about) stay home in the suburbs on the weekend. Who wants to put up with all that bullshit?

    Yeah, “we need to accept and love each other for who we ALL are”. That means don’t judge other gay men no matter who you are and no matter how they act.

  • Anonymous said:

    You forgot “no drink/drug/disease” as though being HIV positive were comparable to being a drug addict. There is a great deal of prejudice aimed at HIV positive men. I’m not surprised it was ignored by TNG in this post and by readers in this comment thread.

    I learned a long time ago those with specific expectations stay alone for a long time.

  • Andy said:

    its not just gays, its everyone. everyone seems so fucking bitter and past chase. its a fucking nightmare. everyone seems to know what they want but no one knows what they need. wake the fuck up people.

  • Greg Fletcher-Marzullo said:

    For me, a lot of this has to do with authenticity. I agree that often our attractions run how they run, but when are those attractions products of marketing and cultural expectation as opposed to true desire and sensual experience?

    At a certain point in my gay life, I was attracted to the standard gay image – beefed-out, yet with a six pack, clean cut, shaved, plucked, etc. But that narrow window actually wasn’t the only type of person I enjoyed sexually. Once I admitted that I’m a tart and am pretty much attracted to a WIDE swath of folks, I allowed myself to own up to the fact that I could get down with lots of different people – and this was a fantastic recognition.

    I also agree with the person (Ssassynfat, I think?) who said that when we cross the line from “I’m not interested” to disrespect (read Tim Bergling’s “Sissyphobia” for an interesting, anecdotal take on some of this) we only feed a swirling negativity that contributes to the self-confidence malaise permeating the gay male experience.

  • Miguel said:

    Andrew Pendleton, you are my new hero of the week. I like your honesty and no-nonse responses. And I completely agree with them and would take them a bit further: gay culture in America is just a sub-product of the broader society where it exists. American culture (by and large) puts a premium on youth, beauty and health. Therefore, it is only natural that American gay culture does the same. Also, it is a bit unfair to characterize gay culture based on what constitutes just the most visible (sadly so) part of the overall community.

  • AP said:

    Really interesting conversation, folks. To dredge up an earlier conversation, what Jeremy laid out here is one of the reasons that lesbians (or at least many in my “lesbian posse”) avoid gay men. Oh, don’t get me wrong, we have our own biases and can get quite hateful regarding the whole butch vs femme thing. But there’s a stereotype that gay men would just as soon spit on you rather than look at you if you aren’t of perfect physique, aren’t the epitome of fashion, etc. And this percieved attitute spans outside hookups but rather includes who you would even associate with. It’s like we’re afraid you all are catty bitches… I know that’s not really fair though

  • Daniel said:

    Gay/Lesbian culture should try to be about the best we have, no? About the fact that unusual and different is not bad but a fact of life, to be accepted and then made the most of that one can.

    I think in we are still using the language of a segregated society, and turning it inwards on ourselves — ‘people look down on me because I’m gay, so I will look down you because you are fat’ — instead of just dropping the segregation act altogether.

    That, and the creativity that comes from just embracing difference and having an open mind, is what gay/lesbian culture should be about and what we can pass on as our heritage.

    Which is not to say that we cannot choose who to be with, date, associate. But since one can make good choices out of bad principles, and bad choices out of perfectly good feelings, is a good to question where we are coming from, as long as the questioning does not become a never-ending loop of paralyzing doubt and self-referentialism. Come to think of it, that could be our other contribution :-)

  • vontanner said:

    “It may be my own insecurities, but whenever I am around a lot of attractive men I feel like the nerdy kid in gym class. The weirdo. The one that people pass over when picking their team. And I’m not even a fat or a femme!”
    Jeremy,
    This is the part of your article that I found to be most interesting. For who’s benefit did you include the ‘And I’m not even fat or a femme” part? Your observation is great, I have admired many of your blog’s, but it still amazes me when that part of ourselves, that internalized part of ourselves that says we’re not really worth it come out. We can talk about fats and femmes, but please understand that I am not one of them! Well I am and I really don’t care if you are or not, but you had to let me know. I wonder if your blog would have been written the same if you were? (I guess I am entitled to a little rank every once in awhile.) no offense please.
    with respect,
    Chris VonTanner

  • NationsKappatol said:

    Awesome conversation, guys.

    I have a unique experience living on both sides of this equation.

    I have struggled with weight my whole life, and when a year ago I learned that I was to become single after many years partnered, I was 230 pounds. At that point in my life, I really needed to make gay friends, as most of mine were originally my ex-partner’s. Trying to be “seen” in our community, even not for sex, at 230 pounds is damn near impossible. People are just disrespectful. Ssassynfat, you hit it on the head. I don’t care if people do not want to sleep with me. I do care that they respect my humanity. As a fat person, I was not looking for sex, I was looking for friendship.

    Since then, I have lost about 45 pounds. Now, apparently I am attractive so, people want to talk to me much more than before. I am having an easier time making gay friends. I guess before, I made them look unattractive by association? I dunno.

    It is remarkable to see how differently I am treated as a thin person v. being a fat person. I felt like I did not even belong in gay spaces as a fat person. I remember maybe 5 years ago walking into VelvetNation and someone made a comment about how I missed the WeightWatchers meeting. Great. Thanks.

  • Jeremy Gloff said:

    I love that my article has opened up a discussion! In re: to Chris Von Tanner’s comment—what a good acute observation :) I guess when I wrote it I was more thinking “well shit, if I feel this much negative energy coming at me at 165 lbs…I can empathize with what someone who is 300 might have to endure.”

  • Michael said:

    I’m going to summarize what I thing are the most important comments above: that referring to someone as “a fat” or “a femme” is degrading.

    Saying what you are or are not attracted to is perfectly fine. Saying it in a derogatory way is not. Calling someone “a fat” or “a femme” dehumanizes them. That’s the crux of this issue.

    The most interesting part is that the author of this post perpetuates this dehumanization by trying to defend himself, stating “And I’m not even a fat or a femme!”

    This makes me wonder whether the author of the post would agree with me that it’s okay to state physical parameters in online ads if it’s done in respectful ways.

  • Anonymous said:

    Not to justify anything, but whenever I hang around ANY of my straight friends… there is always a comment about “Oh of course you’d love Madonna!” or “You would watch Gossip Girl!” To me, it was always an insult in disguise. So what if I like Britney and Madonna and listen to Beyonce? What about the straight people who do as well? How come they aren’t hurled those same statements as well?

    I don’t think that anything will change b/c EVERYTHING will have to change at the same time. Gay men need to stop calling one another faggots and twinks just the same as heterosexuals need to stop perpetuating the cliche stereotypes of homosexuals.

    Beautifully written post though!

  • Anonymous said:

    I think that what you are saying is totally awesome and amazing, BUT, i think that the problem is not in using language like fat or femme. if we starting saying that those are bad words to use, then it makes that a bad thing to be. some people are fat, and some people are femme, and that is totally perfect. i think that it would be more beneficial to teach people to take power from these things and claim them as a righteous thing to be, and teach that they are not bad. i think that when we, as a gay community, are trying really hard to be straight white skinny “perfect” males, and that’s just not how it is. we can’t spend our lives faking it, and why should we? each of us are totally amazing and beautiful in our own right, and it’s something that’s worth claiming power in. i would say keep using those words, but stop making them seem like they’re wrong. why would we want to be boring skinny straight white people anyway?

  • Chris Kaos said:

    Lets all stop for a minute.

    Think about this:
    Where does this bigotry stem from?

    I believe it stems from each and every person on this planet. Including the author, the posters. Including you reading this now, and also myself.

    Every person; Man or Woman, Black or White, Gay or Straight, Fat or Fem, whatever! Has a right to be attracted to whoever they want. It’s an uncontrollable feeling that is a part of human genetic make-up: It’s a simple uncontrollable chemical reaction in the brain.

    You can’t debate a chemical reaction.

    So why are we still debating?

    Because, 6’2″ 150lbs Blonde Hair Blue Eyes Masculine Abercrombie Boys are more attractive to the majority.

    The Solution:
    Lose your insecurity. If you don’t fit the above description (9 out of 10 don’t) then find what makes you special. Find someone you’re attracted to, and show them why you’re special.

    Problem solved. Bigotry isn’t going anywhere people, it’s been around before you and it’ll be around much longer. When we stop sulking in it, new doors open to deeper possibilities.

  • landoftrolls said:

    Good comments. May I simply suggest this: do what you can to lose your emotional investment in having someone else fall in love with you. I check out the cute guys as I walk around the city, but I do my best not to be invested in having them check me out in turn. (If they do, it’s a wonderful surprise!) The speech used in these *ManMeat* ads may sound derogatory, but the ads really are just about hooking up, not about creating social solidarity. The spheres may overlap occasionally, but they really are two different aspects of gay life. I mean, would you really want someone to date you because they believe it’s the politically correct thing to do?

  • Anonymous said:

    From what Ive seen after living in Dupont Circle for 5 years, have gone to all the gay clubs/lounges/bars, DC is divided (in my mind) into several groups:

    ‘A crowd’ (those who are youngish 20s, 30′s and think, wish to be part of the “gay elite”.

    ‘Gay foreigners’ (guys from all over the world, working in international organizations/companies, went to very good schools, prefer to stick to other foreigners)

    ‘Hipsters’ (drink bear, dress hipsterish, dont mind leaving 5 o clock shadow)

    ‘Bear/Hairy’- okay with their body, go to Ptown or Rehoboth, love eating at nice restaurants)

    ‘Latinos’ (from El Salvado, Guatemala or some central american country), love dancing and living it up)

    ‘Blacks’ (dress well, hang out together, love martinis, muscular or nice tight bod)

    ‘Asians (they all go to Gtown or GW, very thin).

    ‘Twinks’ (all the young gay guys from the many universities)

    ‘Elite’ (usually already partnered, own business, beautiful homes/apartments in several cities, travel all over world, usually older)

    ‘Intelectuals’ (all those gays that are TYPE A, going for there Law degress, MBS, Doctorate, etc etc)

    Conclusion
    I think the beauty of DC is that you can make friends with people from all these groups.

    Asking what group I’m in? I’m a ‘Foreigner’.

  • Greg said:

    wow that previous comment is pretty insane. Asians: go to GW or GTown and are all thin?

    Whatever. Pigeonholing is pretty retarded.

    Anonymous 11/10/08 6:49pm said it best “don’t judge other gay men no matter who you are and no matter how they act.”

    And yeah, the gay version of manly is pretty damn gay. Nothing wrong with that, but they need to get off their high horse, because they are pretty fem.

  • Greg said:

    wow that previous comment is pretty insane. Asians: go to GW or GTown and are all thin?

    Whatever. Pigeonholing is pretty retarded.

    Anonymous 11/10/08 6:49pm said it best “don’t judge other gay men no matter who you are and no matter how they act.”

    And yeah, the gay version of manly is pretty damn gay. Nothing wrong with that, but they need to get off their high horse, because they are pretty fem.

  • Anonymous said:

    re: Greg

    Dude. I’m not some deluded fag who pretends he’s masculine cuz he was picked on in high school. No plucked brows squeezed into a t-shirt two sizes too small here, though it might make you feel better to think so.

    Fact is gay guys are so damn busy affecting (or disdaining) masculine or feminine personas they are divorced from themselves, buried in an artifice that is transparent and grotesque, disfiguring them beyond anything natural, honest, credible, attractive or real.

    That some of us know this and call it out doesn’t make us angry or bitter, just resigned. We move forward with our lives cuz we know there are a lot of great guys out there beyond the gender fetished Urban Gay Fantasy that sucks all of you in like a black hole. Those great guys aren’t insecure, they’re not compelled to strut the pageant swagger of cartoon superheros to gain approval from self-loathing fags in bars who can’t hack real life.

    It’s not gay obsession with gender that is so embarrassing. That is just a symptom of the real problem. It’s the transparent insecurity and self-loathing it reveals, that turns people into clowns and buffoons.

    That’s why you all can’t find a “real man” and complain about being single all the time, and whine about how gay culture is always the same. It’s like being an alcoholic wishing you could just meet a nice sober guy to fix everything and make your life better. Why don’t YOU be the change you wish to see in the world?

  • Greg said:

    I was agreeing with you.

  • Greg said:

    I was agreeing with you.

  • Anonymous said:

    Hey, sorry Greg. I think it’s clear I did not get that. I’m not nearly as smart as I think I am sometimes. Thanks for being cool.

    I agree with you: the gay version of manly is pretty damn gay. Why is it they are the only ones who can’t see that? You just gotta laugh.

  • Anonymous said:

    Great post!! Love all the diverse comments :-)
    I think that most gay men should seriously stop living this gay fantasy of perfection which infact is so flawed to the extent that it’s really sick! I mean imagine everyone was thin as a rail and masculine? The same thing that happening in the hetero community is applied in the homo community – masculine vs feminine – feminine guys are treat the same oppressive way that women a treated and at times worse depending on circumstances. I have a naturally chubby, big bone build which gives me a stocky appearence – if you look back at all my pics I have always had a wideset body, some love my body others don’t but it’s a constant battle daily because society keeps spitting out images of people with toned bodies and one type of physical attractiveness .. and it’s daily and you can try your utmost to ignore it..but it’s rubbed in your face constantly. It’s really sad because your self-worth degrades and you punish yourself and it’s difficult to get out of that mindset but things will get better for us all :-) We should just stand up and start dethrowning those demonic assholes behind the curtain who keep throwing thier shit in our faces, dehumanizing us, dividing us up and conquering us. We are all enslaved to this Evil God who we give power too but only when we realise that he cannot dominate us and our essence – shall we set free by the real Loving and Truthful Mother Divine, I can attest that she lives inside us all just search,listen,smell and that essence will appear. Peace, Love, Happiness to you all!! Blessings from the Mother Divine who does watch over you all!

  • Anonymous said:

    Great post!! Love all the diverse comments :-)
    I think that most gay men should seriously stop living this gay fantasy of perfection which infact is so flawed to the extent that it’s really sick! I mean imagine everyone was thin as a rail and masculine? The same thing that happening in the hetero community is applied in the homo community – masculine vs feminine – feminine guys are treat the same oppressive way that women a treated and at times worse depending on circumstances. I have a naturally chubby, big bone build which gives me a stocky appearence – if you look back at all my pics I have always had a wideset body, some love my body others don’t but it’s a constant battle daily because society keeps spitting out images of people with toned bodies and one type of physical attractiveness .. and it’s daily and you can try your utmost to ignore it..but it’s rubbed in your face constantly. It’s really sad because your self-worth degrades and you punish yourself and it’s difficult to get out of that mindset but things will get better for us all :-) We should just stand up and start dethrowning those demonic assholes behind the curtain who keep throwing thier shit in our faces, dehumanizing us, dividing us up and conquering us. We are all enslaved to this Evil God who we give power too but only when we realise that he cannot dominate us and our essence – shall we set free by the real Loving and Truthful Mother Divine, I can attest that she lives inside us all just search,listen,smell and that essence will appear. Peace, Love, Happiness to you all!! Blessings from the Mother Divine who does watch over you all!

  • Anonymous said:

    I have been overweight all of my life. I’ve never had to “came out” everyone just knows that I’m gay. I have a femme sounding soft voice. I swish when I walk. I have been called fat and fem and a troll. I’ve always have had to deal with “name calling” and honestly it’s not fun being called anything negative. Sometimes I get my feelings hurt but I’ve learned to get over it faster. It is dishearting because I feel that a majority of men have the “NO FATS, NO FEMS” attitude. Dating for me has been rough, I often feel as though I’ve not been given the chance for men to get to know the real me and it seems like because I’m considered fat and fem I’m not a MAN. It’s funny though because for me to get to know someone, I don’t say that you have to be “straight acting” or masculine or that you have to be a man that’s into sports, cars, hunting and fishing. I also don’t go around to the guys that are more MANLY than me and say to them “YOU ARE A WANNA BE MAN”, or say something like I think your acting too straight you might wanna tone it down. I also think that it is interesting that the guys that are MASCULINE and STRAIGHT ACTING have to state that all the time. When I was a teenager and called FAG and QUEER is much the same as being called FAT and FEM or TROLL. It’s just funny to see that grown adult MEN still have to resort to name calling. My best friend is a 100% straight MAN and I have known him all my life, he does not care one bit that I’m a FAT or FEM or a TROLL and he does not call me anything expect his best friend, NOW THAT’S A REAL MAN.

  • Anonymous said:

    I have been overweight all of my life. I’ve never had to “came out” everyone just knows that I’m gay. I have a femme sounding soft voice. I swish when I walk. I have been called fat and fem and a troll. I’ve always have had to deal with “name calling” and honestly it’s not fun being called anything negative. Sometimes I get my feelings hurt but I’ve learned to get over it faster. It is dishearting because I feel that a majority of men have the “NO FATS, NO FEMS” attitude. Dating for me has been rough, I often feel as though I’ve not been given the chance for men to get to know the real me and it seems like because I’m considered fat and fem I’m not a MAN. It’s funny though because for me to get to know someone, I don’t say that you have to be “straight acting” or masculine or that you have to be a man that’s into sports, cars, hunting and fishing. I also don’t go around to the guys that are more MANLY than me and say to them “YOU ARE A WANNA BE MAN”, or say something like I think your acting too straight you might wanna tone it down. I also think that it is interesting that the guys that are MASCULINE and STRAIGHT ACTING have to state that all the time. When I was a teenager and called FAG and QUEER is much the same as being called FAT and FEM or TROLL. It’s just funny to see that grown adult MEN still have to resort to name calling. My best friend is a 100% straight MAN and I have known him all my life, he does not care one bit that I’m a FAT or FEM or a TROLL and he does not call me anything expect his best friend, NOW THAT’S A REAL MAN.

  • Randy said:

    The funny thing is about all this is that this whole ‘war’ that is going on is actually seeping into the hetero world.

    Just this past New Year’s Eve my friend… straight, educated and even smart for that matter… tells me that I’m a bear…

    I am by no means a stick-thin man.. but I am 6 feet and 180lbs.

    I am about as average-sized as they come…. what he tells me is that there are two types of gay guys — twinks and bears. And, of course, since I am not stick thin, it clears makes me a bear.

    This is the knowledge that people have of gay culture… because in all honesty a lot of the time it feels like these are the only options… You’re not in perfect shape? BAM! Fatty!

    And, also, my friend continues to discuss gay culture by telling me that I am a top. Let me repeat that…. HE told ME I was a top. As if I had no say. Because according to him there is absolutely no bears who are bottoms. And because I wasn’t a twink (since I am NORMAL looking) I must be a top — because bears definitely don’t bottom.

    So I politely responded with saying why did I have to be either? People can enjoy both (my attempt to slightly educate him — as hopeless as it was).

    And his perfect response: “No they can’t — you are either bottom or top”

    That’s how he understood it… and funny enough I think that’s how too many gay men understand it. You can’t be fat or bearish because you are instantly tagged as one type of person.

    But in all honesty he is pretty dumb.

  • Michael said:

    Randy, your friend reminds me a lot of when I was like 7, I asked my mother if a bear (the fuzzy four-legged kind) was a cat or a dog. She replied that it’s neither, but a bear. I asked again, “But is it a cat or a dog?” I was incapable of understanding that furry animals could come in forms other than cats or dogs. I was 7.

    Your friend needs to grow up. But even more interstingly, where did he “learn” all this “knowledge” anyway? Who’s been misinforming him?

  • Anonymous said:

    This is what happens when you create a culture based on “sex” and not common “sexuality” and trying to force it to be the exact polar opposite of “het culture”. Human needs are human needs, regardless of the sexuality of the people having them. Everyone wants to be desired, and to be loved for who they are but in gay culture everyone wants these things without wanting to have to extend these same privilages to anyone else. The result, a Peter Pan culture of men who can’t grow up, and can’t relate to anyone in an adult intimate relationship but mindlessly chase youth and looks while desperately trying to cling to their own before succumbing to bitter lonely purchased sex. Is the lesbian community better…it used to be, but now it is full of “bois” who want to “top” chicks and cast them aside. Likewise the “het” world is now also full of childish, selfish “gimmie-gimmies” who can’t handle commitment or real intimacy with a real-live flawed fellow human being who will grow old and wrinkly some day. Finally, we are all…gay, lesbian, bi, het…in the same lonely, superficial boat together. Selfishness; the great equalizer.

  • Anonymous said:

    It wasn’t this way 20 years ago. Sure, guys were still guys, and I’m the last kind of person to think there’s such a thing as the “good old days”, but there wasn’t anything like the sort of blatant hostility that you find today on hookup sites or, for that matter, in sex clubs and bathhouses, what few of them remain. Sadly, I think a lot of it has to do with the proliferation of porn over the past 10 years. Today it seems like every guy is looking to re-enact his own version of a Fratmen video, and damnit if he’s going to have sex with anyone who doesn’t look like a porn actor. Of course, there was porn back in the day, but I don’t think it was the predominant way that guys formed their ideas of attractiveness. You went to bars, bathhouses, and so on, and had sex with real people.

  • Alexandria said:

    I’m a 19 year old lesbian, and I’d just like to say that this is becoming a more and more common and disgusting trend. It happens everywhere, in the gay community and the hetero community. It makes me really sad. I’ll meet someone who’s great and then it’s best friend syndrome because I’m not thin or lipstick enough. Or holy crap I’m not pretending to be a lesbian. I actually am one. It seems that all my competition are these little bubblegum pretend dykes who are making out with girls and letting “bois” screw them and lose them so that some guy will think that they’re “risque”, but in all actuality they’re just sluts and I’m stuck being the best friend. Why is it that we are so disassociated that we cannot see the beauty of one in their entirety? Or even better yet, we are so focused on the fiscal value of someone that you shirk you’re feelings for someone for security instead. It’s not about love anymore, it’s about who can do who better and who can buy you nicer things. And it disgusts me. I mean are you really happy bedding a different woman/man every night? And are you that ashamed that you may love someone who isn’t a carbon copy of whats “hot” in Hollywood? I for one, am NOT sorry that I don’t fit the mold. And I’m lucky to say that it’s only taken me the better part of 19 years to figure that out. We need to come together and support one another. We’ve come a long way as it is, but we still have so far to go.

  • Anonymous said:

    In capitalist democracy “sex” and “beauty” are commodities. That is why we have these attitudes and problems.

  • Patrick said:

    I totally agree, we all need to be a lot more inclusive to everyone. Just because people are fat doesn’t mean they are not fun people to be with. We should all just go out and have fun and not be worrying about who looks the worst.

  • ben said:

    ha i love it how the guy in the picture has ‘ not fats or fems’

    its a bit of a contradiction… he looks on the fat side of things :S and wearing pants, im sure thats put in the fem catagory!

    adios

  • Brandon said:

    I totally understand the sexual freedom angle. People should have the freedom to pursue any other consenting adult of their greatest fantasy. However, I have to agree with the sentiment expressed by another commenter earlier. A fine line is crossed when negative mental impressions are ingrained into the culture at large about physical “types” due to certain individuals’ need to express their PERSONAL distaste for some types of people so emphatically. It’s kind of like gay men who go on about “fish and “ewwwing” if they happen to see a picture of a nude female. In a group, this type of juvenile and degrading behavior has an influence on people’s psyches, whether you believe it or not. I’ve seen it constantly – a guy who probably didn’t have any particular reaction to female nudity, suddenly thinks it’s so gross because his peers are constantly telling him so. Frankly, I don’t care if this whole discussion seems “PC”, but nine times out of ten, politically correctness is a direct consequence of political INcorrectness.

  • Leo aka Koumori said:

    ok first off ive been in a loving fulfilling relationship for 6 years with that out of the way if u logged in to gay.com went in to any of the chat rooms you can see that no you cant get a lil’ love … not when the community cant respect itself… you have men on the internet who are acting immature to the nth degree .. men who look down on guys who are in relationships and will do anything they can to break them up (even disregarding that they are in on to ask for a hook up)… you have guys who think they are in love after the first date and brag about it in the chat room for hours and hours but then 2 days later they have a fight and break up … since when has being gay mean that “SEX” is the only facet that makes us up…i know thats not the only facet i have … i’m also a great cook a great friend a great computer gamer but these things will never be known about be because of the barrier that is put up that if i dont put out i cant be a person of any substance .. its as if these men will never have sex again in their life …. and they don’t beat around the bush about it either … they will spam a chat room for hours if not days … i say until the gay community cleans its act up and stops tolerating this behavior the community does not deserve even the basic rights of equality ….even dogs even dogs know learn not to shit where they eat

    Leo

  • DABGuy2U said:

    First of all, well written article.

    There are several points in the article that are right to the point. What irks me is that being Gay is not a choice for most. It’s something that is passed along in the bloodlines or something that has happened to a person that just inhibits that person to be gay. I can speak from personal experience. I was brought up in a very horrible living arrangement as a child. I was put through the adoption circuit twice between the ages of 8-11. My mother mentally and physically abused me to the point that I could not trust anyone. Then after one day just leaving me at school to be picked up by Social Services when I was 8 yrs old; I was ushered to a foster home. It wasn’t long that I was being sexually abused by the bus driver. Granted I was only 8 yrs old but the satisfaction of feeling nurtured and loved for once even though it was at the bus driver’s sickening pleasure I felt loved for once. Hell, I did not know any better considering my upbringing. But ever since then, I have never ever been comfortable in the presence of a woman sexually. I am even to the point now in my life that I don’t want anything from a male except for the companionship. But, that leads me to the next point that bothers me. Why do men have to think with their cocks rather than the head on their shoulders? Why do relationships have to be based on sex? What happened to getting to know one another and build a foundation that leads to a solid relationship that has intimacy that lasts more than a one night stand? I would rather date my hand and satisfy myself than going through many partners in life. No, I am not innocent by far, because I was having sex when I was 9 yrs old with other boys my age all the way through school and into my adult years. In my twenties, I slept with hundreds of men. But, slowly when I hit 30 I realized there is much more to life than just getting off. Now because I am “old fashioned” I am frowned upon and totally bashed by the men that don’t have the same morals that I do. However, I know I am a stronger person because I realize that sex is not the answer for me to live a happy life. Making friends is just as hard as finding that companion in life these days. Only because people can not look past someone’s appearance, what they may or may not have, what type of work they do, etc. However, guys are so pretentious and judgmental that it totally blocks the true perception of anyone they cross paths in life with. We all have stories in life to tell, but we have to have a willing audience to listen and understand where we are coming from. Now is the time for us to come together and unite as one and speak out for human rights and not just gay rights. It’s a human’s choice to live life the way they want to live; whether it’s monosexual, bisexual, heterosexual, or homosexual.

  • Chris Wyrosdick said:

    First of all, there is a lot of truth in this article. The average gay man is very picky and usually does not care if he hurts anyone or not, both mentally and emotionally. Most guys want a stereotypical guy, that is slim, hot, and well endowed. I look at things this way, what about those of us who aren’t any of those? All we really want is for someone to love and cherish us as much as we want a guy that we can do the same too. It shouldn’t be all about the looks. I see the effects day in and day out. I get this same treatment(REJECTION) all the time. Most people don’t want to take the time to actually get to know me in order to find that I’m a really kind, caring, loving guy. All they see is that I’m a heavier set guy and that I’m short. What about the big guys and the fem guys too? You know well all need love and we all ultimately want a life partner. So why do we as a society keep downgrading our selves by just looking at the outside of a person, instead of upgrading and looking at what’s on the inside. You know you just might find something that you’ve been looking for all along and you never knew it.

  • Leo aka Koumori said:

    @Chris Wyrosdick: understanding that everyone has their own taste and accepting that is ok (IE bigger guys liking smaller guys / butch likes butch …so on and so forth too many combos to list) but its when we focus only on what we don’t want and have that as our only facet ppl can see about us is very negative and in some cases turns in to hate … what we are asking is that even if you don’t find me suitable for a life partner why make that ur reason for not even wanting to talk to me and getting to know me as a friend … this leads me to be leave that we are infants because socially we cant get past the act of sex and our desires of wanting sex to realize that that’s just a facet of our being human/gay

  • Ivan said:

    Disgusting.

    Plain and Simple.

    Today our society has made us feel disgusting.

    I don’t want gay marriage rights.

    I’ll settle with respect first.

  • Vapen said:

    What is missing, that “we” are so easy degradable?

    For me the slogan that we all have to accepted and nearly universal loved ect. comes from a spoiled perspective. Its a religious dimension and society is very limited suitable for being a god. ;)
    Its a slogan many decades old, and even if it helped in some areas considerably, why not try something new? There is a strong heritage of wisdom on friendship in our culture, from Marc Aurels “Reflexions” over Montaignes “Essays” to, why not, Mark Trains “Tom Sawyer” for example.
    People are no slaves to contemporary.

    Respect has to be earned. And in how this can be done, everyone gets his unique chance and value.
    Shape or be shaped, simple as that. Choose what shapes you.
    If you feel for “more life, less businesslike sex”, take the consequence.

  • Leo aka Koumori said:

    @Vapen…First I would like to say that I can not believe that someone could be so out of tune with society as to think that we all do not deserve a measure of respect just for being human beings. Granted some people deserve less, if any, respect based on their actions, but no one is below respect just for being born. Second I want to make sure that it is understood that I say this, not based on an unprovable religious dogmatic way of thinking, but based on an overall feeling that we are all in this together and only together will we have a happy coexistence. By propagating the stereotypical thought patterns and spewing the standard “canned” hate messages…fatties, fems, butch, dyke, bears, twinks, lezzie etc…we not only continue to cement public opinion of us to the negative, we also continue to base our description and depiction of ourselves, within our own community, based on our sexual activity, not on what really matters…who we are as people and what we have to offer one another. So wake up and realize that I can love you as a friend and I really don’t care if you are a top or bottom or what size your cock is.

    If any one has any new ideas, feel free to suggest how we can learn to get passed this concept that we can not exist out side of our sexual desires. I would to see people getting along outside of the bedroom….

  • Brandon said:

    Hell, I don’t need a friend. I just asked not to viewed through some fucked up sexual prism. Just because I am here, doesn’t mean I am on display to be judged for my “sexual worthiness”. I don’t know if it’s a gay problem specifically or an anonymous online user problem, where people think it’s ok to abandon normal human etiquette. I’m thinking it may be both in one. I think the majority of the gay population, despite all the “hotness” within, has some severe mental issues. What else would explain why there seems to be such an intense irrational fear of those who very likely have not even attempted to interact with you? If you paid attention to the attitudes in most online ads, you’d think “fatties” and “fems” are lining up in droves to accost some unsuspecting “butch hottie”. I’d say that’s pretty damn ironic considering that on your typical site for gay men, it’s also the majority that is “fit”, “in-shape” and “takes good care of themselves”. And if you thought that sent the irony meter to the breaking point, many of the same also don’t want anyone that is a “gay stereotype”. Umm, right.

  • Jeremy Gloff said:

    hey you guys it’s jeremy who wrote this piece. i didn’t realize this was still being discussed…but i wanted to let you all know i took the time to read all your comments and appreciate everyone’s take on this.

  • Brandon said:

    Thanks for bringing up the issue. Though sadly, I doubt that any of the people that need to see this the most, will.

  • Rahim said:

    There’s a venerated saying that goes something along the lines of, “If you don’t love yourself, why should anyone else?” Gay people in the United States, whether out or closeted, almost wear their self-loathing on their shirt sleeves. As much as they try to mask this by affecting an air of insouciance, the disgust of a gay man at the sight of another gay man acting ‘queer’ is nearly palpable.

    Just as black people have long been outwardly demeaning towards other blacks with pronounced African physical features, no one hates a queer like another queer. And as was the case with black people, this desire to attack others from our own group is driven by the hatred of the things we fear in ourselves. Scared of being fat and unloved? You’re more likely to lash out at the obese than someone who isn’t.

    Self-loathing and insecurity are the source of the ‘no fats, no femmes’ litanies in gay personals and the sneering derision that permeates any venue where queers congregate. The forced ebullience of so many gay pride celebrations is just a mask for the fact that most gay people are still very uncomfortable with who they are. Secure, happy people don’t feel the need to constantly find fault in others to make themselves feel better. Time for Gay America to grow up and stop teaching Middle America how to hate us.

  • Frat Boy » The New Gay » No Fats or Fems: A Gay Culture that is at War with … said:

    [...] post is by unknown onWe need to stop using terms like fats, femmes, twinks, and trolls. We need to get together. We [...]

  • jeremy gloff said:

    rahim i think your post kinda hits the nail right on the head.

  • Boy College Straight » The New Gay » No Fats or Fems: A Gay Culture that is at War with … said:

    [...] post is by fat3free@gmail.com onNot only does the heterosexual public seem to look negatively on a lot of stereotypically gay [...]

  • FatAlbert said:

    I can’t imagine one possible biological reason why any same-sex attracted person would have this “type” mentality. Even if one accepts the premise that homosexuality serves an overpopulation purpose, the level of fastidiousness the modern homosexual (gay MAN in particular) has when it comes to others of the same sex, has no justification. Heterosexuals being so picky actually makes sense because in general, THEY are the ones reproducing. Sure, we will never have a world where everyone is attractive to anyone. But a lot of this “insert physical laundry list here” isn’t simply just some instinctual preference as some people like to pretend. Truth be told, given the already small size of the homosexual population, excessive shallowness can rightfully be seen as a form of anti-social behavior, that like any other, ought NOT be celebrated and/or condoned. Save me the “sexual freedom” bit. A culture of sexually free people who haven’t cultivated healthy (eg. realistic) sexuality, does no one any favors in the long run.

  • Kyle said:

    @ FatAlbert: My observation is that biology isn’t beholden to human logic. I suspect that when it comes to homosexual attraction, what one would find attractive if one were heterosexual-but-of-the-opposite-sex is what one would find attractive as a homosexual. For most human beings, biology dictates an attraction toward fitness. That holds true whether one is heterosexual or homosexual.

  • FatAlbert said:

    My observation is that things in nature have a reason. While there are more than one possible explanations, “it just is” or “this is how it will be” are invalid because biology is neither unjustifiable or necessarily fate. Also, I disagree with your theory that homosexuals are just inverted heterosexuals. My observation of the way gay men judge each other compared to the way women judge men, and also the way lesbians judge women compared to the way straight men do, show that be false. And again, heterosexual obviously have an excuse to be excessively picky about mates. What is homosexuals’ reason?

  • Kyle said:

    @FatAlbert: we are picky because like heterosexuals we are human beings, and human beings are programmed to be biased toward the fit when it comes to sexual attraction. It’s in our hardwiring. And things in nature may have a reason to exist, but that reason doesn’t have to bend to human logic or desire. (In other words, we may or may not know or understand why X occurs – in this case “x” being a bias toward the fit in sexual attraction among homosexual males – but things occuring may have a causes that are not subject to human reasoning yet.) It’s reason for existence is independent of human reasoning about it, or lack thereof, and it most certainly isn’t beholden to your desires. I want a lot of things I cannot have. Life is not fair. Nature is not fair either, or else we’d all look alike. And biology will work in certain ways regardless of whether you think it is reasonable or not.

  • Papa Snow said:

    Yeah, it sounds like you’re observing what is and disputing it just because you can’t figure out why (ostensibly, at least – of course it’s for much more self-serving reasons) – that’s not how understanding works.

  • Queer Blogger said:

    I think what all of this boils down to is this: we need to work finding value in others even if we don’t want to sleep with them.

    So often queer people and maybe even humans in general (but definitely queer people, because we’re always looking for that needle in the gaystack) we dismiss people who we don’t find sexually attractive. We dehumanize them to the point where it’s okay to be mean to them and shit all over them (metaphorically speaking).

    The solution is for everyone to stop conflating people’s value as human beings with their sexual attractiveness. Just because you don’t want to fuck someone doesn’t mean you have the right to be rude. Maybe we all need to wear those “Mean People Suck” t-shirts?

  • FatAlbert said:

    Kyle, you continue to walk right past the pink elephant in the room. If homosexuals were “programmed” to seek fit partners, they would not be seeking someone of the same sex in the first place, but instead the opposite sex. This is the second time you’ve referred to things in nature not being beholden to human logic, and now “desire”. First of all, if you read either of my posts thoroughly, there is no way you would have had the idea that either was my goal, simply because I made a speculation – something you have done yourself. For example, what actual proof do you have that all human are “programmed to seek fit partners”? I suppose I’m entitled to assume that because it’s been a long-standing logical theory about heterosexuals, your lofty desire has you concluding that homosexuals fit into this scheme. It’s quite absurd to eschew the role of logic in understanding nature. Of course, logic alone is not sufficient, but luckily there are people who make a living out of researching and experimenting in such fields.

  • FatAlbert said:

    Papa, were you in such a rush to claim that my statements were “self-serving”, and “obviously” so (I wonder if the “FatAlbert” name is what made it so clear) that you read what you wanted? But that is not how reading comprehension works. Please see my post dated 16 September 2009 at 5:25 pm for what *I* have disputed.

  • Kyle said:

    @FatAlbert, I stand by my assessment. What nature does is not beholden to my logic or desires. It will operate by its own internal logic. Human beings, homo- and heterosexual are inately attracted to physically fit people, even though that attraction can sometimes limit the number of people one could possibly have sex with.

    I myself am overweight. Now, I could waste my time griping that homosexual men should get over their hangups and make themselves find me attractive, or I can just accept that it’s not going to happen, and then move on to accepting either being overweight and having a lower chance of finding a mate, or raising my chances by losing weight. Either course of action is up to me, and therefore choosing between them is my responsibility.

    Whining that homos should be finding me attractive because there’s no reason for them not to defies reality and is counterproductive. It can only lead to resentment or worse.

  • FatAlbert said:

    Well if you choose not to “whine” and are happy with that choice, more power to you. But if you are insinuating that that’s what I am doing, I suggest you get a grip and come back to this discussion when you are mature enough to have an adult conversation without the needless hyperbole and revelation of your own emotional issues related to your weight. Stand by your “assessment” if you like, but I must tell you that it hasn’t addressed anything that I’ve said.

    And for future reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitness_%28biology%29

  • biology minor is occationally useful said:

    Yeah, second the wikipedia link. Go read it. “Physically fit” is not the same thing as “capable of successfully producing and raising offspring”. “Survival of the fittest” is a very poor statement of the workings of evolution; attributing colloquial meaning to the words used makes it borderline nonsensical.

  • Kyle said:

    Wow. Clearly you hold your beliefs strongly. May I ask, what is your stake in maintaining your argument? What do you get from believing the “excessive fastidiousness” of gay men with regard to potential mates is not rooted in biology?

  • FatAlbert said:

    That’s a weird question. I could ask you what you get out of believing that it’s biological, and that IF it is, how that makes it a good or neutral thing, ipso facto. Seriously, what would I get believing what I believe that is any different from you get in believing what you believe?

  • Kyle said:

    @FatAlbert: I don’t think the question is all that weird. Clearly you embrace the opinion that the “excessive fastidiousness” of gay men has no biological basis, and believe it very strongly. Why do you believe it very strongly? What benefit do you derive from this belief?

  • FatAlbert said:

    What clear is that you still did not grasp what I said. I submitted my suspicion that it has no biological basis, and followed that even if it does, that would not make it neutral or good. Where do you get the idea that I believe “very strongly”? Is is because I am responding to ALL of your comments to ME? I believe what I do based on my observations and experiences. What do I derive? Gee, an explanation to phenomena. Is that answer not redundant enough?

  • Kyle said:

    I think I see it all clearly now. I grasp what you say, and disagree. Thanks for your input.

  • FatAlbert said:

    Glad I could be of service.

  • Jackson Goff said:

    @Chris Kaos “If you don’t fit the above description (9 out of 10 don’t) then find what makes you special.”

    Good on you. Why blame muscle heads for going to the gym, then cry when they’re not interested because you’ve never been. If you’re fat and find it’s just as OK as Oprah says, don’t put yourself down or do it to anyone else. And ignore anyone who’s doing it to you because they don’t feel OK.

    Our ideal love muffin is also often our ideal self. You’re better off to pursue the characteristics you admire, rather than depending on fate to hook you up with them?

    At one time, I could bench my own weight. Bad news is that was 230 pounds on a 5’6″ frame. I’ve been to both extremes. From a 32″ waist to 54″ and back. That’s when I stopped worshiping looks and started looking for kindness, honesty, decency. You know what’s goony: when I find someone has those traits, I find them very appealing. The other thing that makes someone attractive is when they like me. LOL

  • Wayne said:

    I came out at 16 in 1983 and I thought “finally the previous 10 years of teasing and bullying are over”. Well was I in for a big surprise because the gay community has been worse,far worse. If you don’t look like a model on the cover of any men’s magazine, don’t even think about being part of the “in crowd” or the “A” list as I call it(unless your filthy rich, they will over look a 33 inch waist if you have cash). What is worse is that the “in crowd” takes great pleasure in being as bitchy and mean as possible to anyone not in the “in crowd” (Go on any gay men’s site and the lists of dont’s and wont’s is amazing and really bitchy). As an adult I have never fit in or felt like part of any gay community. I started weight lifting when I turned 28 and during my 30′s I did get more attention and have some incredible sex with some hot guys, but nobody wanted me for anything more than sex. In fact the majority of the guys I was now getting attention from where so screwed up emotionally that a relationship was impossible for them. It’s really sad, all looks and no substance. As I entered my 40′s I rejected the “Golds Gym” lifestyle and secluded myself to just a small group of close friends, other “outsiders” who don’t cut the mustard of unrealistic gay standards. I’m 44 now, I work out 3 to 4 times a week, I’m not a drama queen, I have a great job, nice car, but at any qay bar or function I attend its like I dont exsist so I just don’t go to those places anymore. I order in for sex and the only gay places I go are resturants and some certain shops. I feel far more comfortable living in a straight setting in the burbs then I do living in the gay ghetto, which is where I live now, but Im considering another move out of the city, where there is a mixture of people. I’m really excited to run across this site, of course Im not a twink but I do appreciate those who feel the way I felt at a young age and I hope that those in their 20′s now have a better opportunity to live a fuller and happier life not trying to fit in with a very narrow group of people, who I think are probably the most unhappy of all of us. Just be YOU and live a life with all people in all sectors of society and don’t judge yourself by “Gay” standards, because they are very shallow and unrealistic for the greater population of us at large.

  • Karl said:

    Wayne I REALLY loved ALL your comments. KUDOS TO YOU!

  • Wayne said:

    Thanks Karl!

  • Joe said:

    At the end of the day, some people just don’t like femme guys. That’s just how it is. Some people also don’t conform to the gay stereotype. If a society where everyone has sex with anyone regardless of attraction to one another is your idea of an ideal “gay culture”, you better believe that we’ll be at war with ourselves.

  • Unknown said:

    Nice strawman. Maybe someone born yesterday will buy it. No one asked anyone to have sex with anyone they aren’t attracted to. Forest/Trees
    The real and larger issue is the normalization of superficiality derived from the very pernicious effects of a culture of objectification. Are all feminine guys alike? Do all chubby or African American men look alike? Despite the voices of those toeing the gay party line on any issue of sexuality, there is nothing “natural” about being attracted to / repelled by isolated features rather than a whole person. We are moving into a society of fetishism. Is that ideal? A few evidently believe this topic to be a piece in political correctness. But in reality, it’s the gay ideology that as long as the criteria of “consenting adults” is satisfied, there is nothing that need to be challenged in regards to human sexuality. And I know that many are deathly afraid of having their ideology questioned.

  • pink_minx said:

    I am guessing from the first post that this is a mainly American site?

    Interesting reading guys, thank you.

    Firstly can I state the primary reaction to the opening post is “your ‘gay culture’ appears to be male only?!”

    I identify as a gay female. I also Identify as very femme. My gf is what over here is called a soft butch (not sure if you have the same terminolgy?). With regard to “We need to stop using terms like fats, femmes, twinks, and trolls” why? we have no need to lose the terms, we have a need to lose the negativity attached to the terms. For some people they like their labels, it helps them identify in an already very complicated scene.

    I happily identify as a femme, my best mate’s bf (OMG a lesbian who is friends with a gay male….fnacy that!) is massivly into his pet term “twinks” It is not the language that is wrong, but our perception and induction into the abuse of the language that is wrong.

    I am all for keeping the language and reclaiming the pride attached to some of the terms.

    Raising a glass to all the poofs, stone dykes, butches, leather boys etc etc keep your titles if you are happy with them, it identifies our own unique diversities

    x

  • rob said:

    no fats no fems :
    I am on the heavy side: tough meeeting men sometimes

    but these arrogant bastards is ruin it for other people
    whne I see heterosexuals having sexin there cars and goverment
    vehicles at parks my phoned is dialed into 911

    thats all these people
    and gay men 2
    men an another person devasted a park

    now the community runs through trails where gays hang out take pictures
    or an undercover cop sevral times a week..
    so if you cannot play fair you cannot play..

    henry

  • hatebeingay21 said:

    I agree with this ad not only am I a twink. Im sick of guys who use me for my looks or ass. We say we hate when straight guys are mean to us but we are the bigger bullies to each other. N stop this twink on twink action.

  • Andy said:

    Great article! Something that no one here has mentioned yet is narcissism. I think narcissism makes men act spoiled and self-centered, especially after the childhood rejection us gays often experience. We grow up to feel entitled because of our past experiences. It makes us feel we are trying to make up for something, and we become self-absorbed and defensive. If we want a muscular, butch man, then nothing will stop us from getting it!

    Sadly, this view is all too common. We need to overcome these pressures and realize not everyone is a muscular, sex-addicted alpha male. Let’s focus on the good qualities in a partner (honesty, trust, etc.) instead of the shallow. Beauty fades.

  • daniel said:

    I have to agree on this I came out when I was 19 and I tried to be out in the gay community more but I have found it to be really difficult for me and I am 23 now I am 5’3 chubby and black I would say I am more in between with being fem and masculine but being short and not skinny is not easy in the gay community I have more straight friends then gay friends and and from being so frustrated I have been always told to my face and on sites that your really cute and a great guy but your short and fat so therefore I can’t look at you as a friend or someone I could date or hookup with.

    I don’t get it there are guys that just have attidues for no reason idk how it is in other places in the world but in nyc its really difficult out here and I have been called annoying and for a long time I thought it was just my personality but then I started hearing the same thing from other gay guys in the community and from there I knew someone was wrong and it wasn’t me. I feel we need to be more united and start being more open to EVERYONE I get everyone has there preference however I feel like the majority of the gay communitys prefrence is 90 percent skinny and tall.

    When I first lost weight like 3 years ago I for sure noticed a different aproach towards me there were guys who tried talking to me who I used to talk to and all of a sudden I loose weight and now I am “attractive”? Something has to change keep in mind I have gained some weight back but I have been told alone people who are straight that I am not even that big how are you single and I tell them about how the gay community is and there in shock and ask why I have accepted that is how the gay community is but I feel its just not right

  • daniel said:

    By the way I forgot to mention wayne your awesome I. Looooove your comment you hit the nail on the head about what needed to be said your comment I hope opened a lot of peoples eyes

  • Justin said:

    I agree with the previous poster who commented on the fact that is the negativity associated with these terms more so than the terms themselves. A minor exception to that would be the “fat” thing, because it is generally considered unhealthy or “bad” to be overweight. That does not, however, give people the right to be so rude about it.

    It’s an unfortunate side effect of internet culture – where people think they can do and say whatever they want because they are virtually anonymous (although, I don’t think I’d want my photograph associated with such pejorative language). I think people have ALWAYS been this way, it’s just easier for people to be jerks online.

    My overall motto is to put absolutely NO FORMS OF NEGATIVITY in my profile whatsoever. It says a lot about a person that when given a small amount of space to describe oneself, that they choose to list all of the things they DON’T like. I’m Hispanic – yet I wouldn’t ever consider dating/hooking up with a guy who is actively seeking to hook up with Hispanic people. Liking the race, is still racism because you are objectifying it and using it as criteria for why you want to get together with someone.

  • Douglas Quinonez said:

    Hi I am a feminine gay male and am happy to find out im not alone and would like to make a stand

  • Disfactor said:

    If there really is a sexual revolution going on then gay and bisexual men are lagging far behind and won’t experience true revolution until they give up being afraid of their own femininity. This means:

    1 Stop being ugly over emotional, monstrous queens. No real woman is like that! If your going to dress as a woman for a day be as close to a real woman as possible not so hideous caricature of one

    2 abandon all isms a racist or sexist gay man or woman is a hypocritical joke to everyone. Why, because your actually worse than those that you accuse of being homophobic. At least their being honest about who and what they are. Your still in the closet

    3 Stop with this annoying, fake, dysfunctional mannerisms — no one has a limp wrist unless its broken

    4 Stop refusing to acknowledge that their are ugly people of color and pretty people of color, so stop sexualizing men of color as beast or thugs. The truth is that most healthy people of color consider the socially vaunted thug to be an outright insult and wouldn’t even let their children behave like that let alone date someone like that. In fact, those individuals are avoided as much as possible!

    5 the most painful thing that middle class people of color and whites that were born into white nations are going to have to admit is that people of color are just as white as whites in terms of consciousness.

    If gay men would honestly do these 5 things liberation for gay and bisexual men would be strongly on its way.
    October 28 at 2:07pm via mobile · Like · 1

  • Jay said:

    Lol good luck with that. The gay community is absolutely looks based. Even in 2008 I’m surprised anybody even bothered writing this, it’s been my entire life. As an overweight, black smoker and not the most masculine in the world I apply to pretty much everybody’s “no” list for one reason or another. It’s no better in the straight community either, fraught with “no fat chicks” bumper stickers and the anthem of a “real man” being the only one worth any time. Humans=shallow and if you don’t appeal to someone physically or at least financially, you’re not getting very far.

  • Doctor Whom said:

    Humans=shallow

    Exactly. People commonly commit the Nirvana fallacy by comparing gay men as we actually are with other people as they exist only in theory.

  • Pete deMatteo said:

    oppressed groups want what the utmost oppressor has and want to behave as the utmost oppressor behaves. a gay man grows a mustache, a beard, works out at a gym to resemble Jack Atlas, and is worshipped by his subculture. the transgendered woman, with her mincing strut, perhaps, is marginalized by the gay subculture, as is the elderly and/or obese man out of fear of physical imperfection. until promiscuity is reduced vastly and child adoptive rights are demanded, we will continue to be temper-ridded train wrecks, for the most part, although there are definate exceptions. we want so desperately for normalcy, but are unwilling to do the vast amount of work involved to achieve it.

  • Ben said:

    Negativity is, unfortunately, the “beat” of our time. As we’re getting pickier and pickier of who we associate with, hook up with, or partner up with, we’re getting lonelier and lonelier. Non-chosen solitude is sky-rocketing in most countries in the Western world.

    …However.
    We can’t moralize over people preferences. If a person publishes a contact ad, they’re gonna be very specific – simply because they’ve been unable to find anybody they can truly connect with via conventional, direct social means. You put up a contact ad, because you’re tired of compromising. Because that’s the only venue where you can be specific without investing time and emotions on a person who

    I for example, can’t think of anything more unattractive than a fem guy. It’s really nothing personal, but I do go by the tried and true “if I wanted someone feminine, I’d take a real woman”. They’re the only ones who are good at it, IMHO.

    This only makes sense to me because I AM in fact homosexual – I’m attracted to masculinity, both body, mind, and behavior. I myself is a very masculine dude in both body and demeanor. There is no point in denying it, and there certainly is no point in “give fems a try”, or “getting to know a fem” before judging. I know what I like, and I know fems are not it. They are as uninteresting to me as women, both emotionally as well as sexually.

    So this whole debate seems pointless.

    Another observation I’ve made is that most of the people who seem to complain about these things are the people who the negative disclaimers affect. I’ve read and watched too many video bloggers on youtube where these incredibly effeminate guys complain about all the masculine men who only prefers masculine men. They bitch and whine about how awful these men are, and how they’re “disloyal” to the gay community and how we should never ever discriminate our fellow gays.

    To any critical thinker, this should leave a bad taste right off the bat.

    There seems to be something wrong here. If these fems are so open minded and willing to give everyone a chance regardless of demeanor – why are they so obsessed with masculine men? And why are they so lonely? After all there is apparently, no lack of lonely fem guys out there. Because they’re just as picky as the next homo…?

    The debate seems infected to me, because they only ones who are allowed to have preferences when it comes to demeanor – are fems. On the same token, the only ones who are allowed to have preferences when it comes to body type are fat guys.

    The rest of us who are masculine or fit, or both, are expected – even obligated (or so it seems) to compromise on our preferences just so that we can fill some kind of fem quota and be loyal to the gay community?

    My conclusion is – this in NOT a political matter, people. It’s not for anyone else to moralize over. These are people’s dreams, preferences, fantasies, and most important of all – freedom of choice. The gay community is not an authority we have to answer to. It’s a phantom entity that emerged from people being discriminated against. NOW-days… we’re slowly beginning to be a normal, accepted part of society – and the precious gay community is therefore dissolving. It’s a natural consequence – and IMO a step in the right direction.

    Can’t have the cake and eat it too.

  • IzzytheSizzy said:

    @ Ben-

    I agree with you. I am a biracial overweight 31 year old male in the midwest and there are next to no dating prospects for me here.

    I can not blame others for having their own types. I am not attracted to black guys but that does not mean we could not be friends. I also am attracted to more masculine men but I find ‘femmes’ to be a lot of fun to be around. Who I have sex with is a completely different list form who I befriend. No one should be judged for either. I am too masculine for some, too feminine for others but just right for myself. I am a good guy and I will not let others tear me down because I don’t fit their mold. They are entitled to their choice in men. I am not what they are looking for? I move on.

    I think we should not nag people for their sexual preference, nor should we nag ourselves because we don’t fit others criteria. I have more love for myself than to pine away over those that do not want me. The words “Please want me” will never leave my lips or cross my mind. I get lonely like the next guy, but I refuse to stand outside the window like a desperate child wishing for that puppy that has no idea that I am there because it is too busy licking it’s own butt. :)

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