This is a really good question, one that my partner and I are still trying to figure out. When we first started dating, he told me that I didn’t have to give up my identity so that he could have his. I guess if we can accept identity as something that is more fluid than static, it helps lessen any sort of “identity crisis” presented when a transguy and a lesbian get involved.

I wish I could be so politically correct, I mean eloquent, and develop a dysfunctional co-dependence with only politically correct friends but reality and maturity got in the way.

anon – i’m just eloquent like that.

It depends on who I’m talking to… If I’m talking casually, either to someone who knows me or to someone who I would not expect to appreciate the distinction, I will be lax and use “man”/”male”/”guy”/FtM (which has “male” as part of it, obviously)/whatever interchangeably. However, I do not consider myself to be biologically male (though I don’t think I’m wholly “female” either).

I think, based on my experiences, that this could be extrapolated to most transguys, at least. (But I could be wrong, and it’s not like there’s any formal trans polling organisation.)

Why do the haters even give a fuck?

Nice. Very “level headed” as Michael would say.

Do most trans, FTM, for example, consider themselves a MAN or a MALE?

I don’t get why so many people get so angry about this, as if it’s some zero-sum game where you can’t have your gender if someone else has it, too.

So, my big question: Why do the haters even give a fuck?

I completely appreciate (and agree with) your points about re-gendering/un-gendering behaviours. However, I don’t think that a female identifying as a man undermines that general thrust. Of all the various feelings, behaviours and actions that are supposed to be “specific to males”, why is “being a man” crossed off the list of “things a female can be”? How is being a female man not fundamentally subversive to the “men/males are [this thing]; women/females are [this other thing]” dichotomy?

I do not disagree/dispute that you are a woman because you are female, or that by definition anything a woman does is/can be feminine. However, I don’t think that I invalidate your beliefs or your identity by saying that I am not a woman, just because I am female, or that all females must be “feminine”. Defining my gender independent of my physical sex may be a “weaker point”, but I don’t have any other option.

It’s probably my own fault for being unclear in my statement about women being “masculine” (which is why i put it in quotes)… but just to clarify what i meant:

I have an issue with being called a masculine female. I am a female who exhibits “masculine” behaviors/appearance, but by definition any action/appearance of mine is feminine because I, a female, am doing it(object/agent thing). In my opinion, women are always feminine no matter how they behave/appear.

The longer we label particular behaviors/appearances as masculine/feminine without actually attaching them to who is actually doing them at the time, the more we perpetuate gendered myths/stereotypes. It’s totally feminine to have a goatee – i’m a female and i have one. So how can it not be? ;)

I am not a woman because I say I am a woman, I am a woman because my sex is female. This is what makes me a woman. It’s not just how i identify myself or how i feel. The fact that I am a woman is based upon more than just my word.

Feelings/behaviors have been deemed masculine because they were perceived as “specific to men” for ages. However as more and more women exhibit them (or are recognized as having exhibited them all along), that feeling itself becomes de-gendered. This, to me, is the goal. Gender is not based on behaviors or feelings. If women calls herself a man because she “feels like” a man, it works against this goal.

I don’t think that trans people are dictating that masculine people must be men, but I do believe that saying that gender can be changed by the snap of a finger or the turn of a phrase is problematic and quite scary to me.

I’m really sorry that’s happening to you. Nobody should have that happen.

One of the important things I have learned from my involvement in the trans community is to *not* make assumptions about anyone’s gender based on their appearance or presentation. It sounds like individual trans people have also given you trouble, but know that that sort of behavior is not acceptable in the trans community at large.

I also think that when people incorrectly assume that you’re trans, that assumption is based on some level of ignorance about the trans community. You know that trans men can be femme, trans women can be butch, and that gender expression and being trans are two totally different things. But lots of people don’t realize that, and unfortunately, they apply their sterotypical notions of what trans people are like to label you as trans.

Is this the fault of the trans community? I don’t think so. I think it’s mostly due to lack of education about the difference between gender and gender expression and ignorant people making bad assumptions based upon their limited understanding of the issues.

I’m FTM and completely support you as a woman who doens’t meet stereotypical gendered norms, and if I overheard anyone making inappropriate assumptions about you, I’d give them a piece of my mind!

To the extent that there is A Trans Movement (which is kind of like saying The Homosexual Agenda, since we’re all obviously hive-minds), it has not my experience that it says “masculine people must be men, feminine people must be women”. If anything, perhaps that is “Old Trans”, as opposed to “New Trans”… heh.

For what it’s worth, I have no issue with your stated identity, I don’t think it threatens The Trans Movement (lol), and it is unfortunate you have experienced discrimination based on it. Every community has it’s morons. (On a strictly personal note, I would be very sad if there were no masculine women.)

As for other people mis-identifying you, while that is unfortunate… is there a way to prevent that? It has happened to me (and, I’m sure, most trans people) more times than I can count, and seems particularly prone to happen in LGBT spaces where people are more used to seeing masculine women. But given that there may not be any clues, to even a well-meaning and educated observer, to distinguish a pre-T transguy from a butch woman… I mean, if it’s an honest mistake, and they graciously accept the correction, no harm, no foul?

Zack, I really have to disagree with you there…

Actually, I have issue with the “trans movement”* because it very much threatens me in all of these ways.

As a woman who does not meet stereotypical or gendered “norms” with relation to my gender expression I am often challenged with regard to my gender – by men, women AND trans folks.

Because I do not “look” like a woman, people often identify me not only as a man (which is bad enough), but as trans, something i find extremely offensive – because it means that not only do they know i’m a woman, but they figure that I must be *trying* to be perceived as a man.

The idea that women could be “masculine” without being “men” is greatly threatened by the “trans movement”*.

*I realize that this is making a generalization about the community as a whole, but I DO acknowledge that your mileage may vary with regard to individuals who identify as trans…

What progress is undone by allowing that gender is self-defined?

I don’t see the distinction between you telling me I must be a woman because I have a vagina and someone else telling me I can’t be a Real Woman because I’m too butch/have a job/don’t submit to men/whatever. How is changing who gets to tell me who I really am progress?

So because a gay couple thinks their “married”, and I think they’re not, why should I abandon my beliefs? Why shouldn’t they respect my belief that they are an abomination before the eyes of God?

Someone is a man because they are a man (male), no behavior, surgery, sexual attraction or affinity for “girly” things will ever change that. This is what I (and others within (some) gay and feminist communities) have been asserting for years. To say that gender is mutable “because you (any individual) say so” undoes years of progress.

Why do you care if someone chooses to define their own gender? You chose to define your own sexuality. Homosexuality isn’t a choice, but the expression of it is.

Why does this issue seem to make so many gay so apoplectic? Someone chose to live as a gender other than the one they were born with. Why is this insulting to people? Why is it so contentious?

One final question (which assumes you are a gay man. If you’re not, you should still see some value in it:) You are walking down the street and see a gorgeous man with thick dark hair, broad shoulders, donned in a suit and tie. He is your dream guy. You stare at him for as long as he remains in your sightline and tell all your friends about him when you get home.

How does it change your perception of him at that moment if he does or did have a vagina?

Why not the other way around?

*the quotes are to express the evangelical opinion, if that wasn’t clear.

re the other anon: I do not propose “abandoning all definitions”. I’m saying that since we’re talking about a population for whom a particular word in every-day usage of the language is inadequate, we should accept a more appropriate (re)definition of that word when we’re having discussions about that population. It’s jargon.

Do you propose abandoning all definitions as a solution to the fact that things don’t always mean what we want them to?

The evolution/creation debate is a question of deep personal conviction and belief vs. established biological fact. A person who understands the facts of evolution cannot have a rational discussion with someone who has already decided what they believe based on limited information. I would not challenge a christian’s beliefs but, by the same token, I would expect them to respect the facts of evolution…and not try to proselytize and evangelize me into the fold.

My apologies if I have confused you with however many other anonymous posters expressing that trans people are liars/insane and what they say about themselves shouldn’t be respected.

However, having re-read all of your comments on this post, I am having difficult reconstructing what your underlying point is. Could you (re)state it for me?

(re some other anon: Society’s definitions blow. Most of our society currently defines marriage as “between one man and one woman”)

Nothing I have written in this post as anon #2 (my only screen name) is objectionable, offensive or deserving of your dismissive responses. To reject me based on every other anonymous commenter is the same as me generalizing about you based on erroneous impressions.

It is not an issue of being “born gay” but of a biological basis for all sexual orientation. For a quick answer just ask any straight person if they were born straight.

…if you’re going to tell me that it’s impossible for me to be a man because I’m just reinforcing gender stereotypes, well…

Again, the discussion here is not about you personally but about biological determinants of gender. Sure you can be a “man” but you were not born biologically male. Not all biological males reinforce gender stereotype. That reasoning is very reductive.

The evolution/creation thing is an odd choice… Yes, I am biased, and I have decided what I believe. No evangelical is going to convince me that their magical sky fairy trumps science. (Short of God reaching down and bitch-slapping me. Then I might believe.) Could an evangelical convince you, or have you also made up your mind?